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"Black Powder Russian Battalion Size? Standard or Large?" Topic


13 Posts

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483 hits since 8 Jan 2019
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Cooldude08 Jan 2019 2:06 p.m. PST

For Black Powder are Russian battalions considered standard size or large? I noticed in the Clash of Eagles book they have an extra stamina point and a higher points costs so I just assumed they were large. However it does not note them as large like it does for the Austrians. Basically now my French battalions are 24 figures and I need to figure out if I should do the same for the Russians or bump them up to 32 for a large battalion. Thanks in advance for the help!

Cooldude08 Jan 2019 2:07 p.m. PST

For Black Powder are Russian battalions considered standard size or large? I noticed in the Clash of Eagles book they have an extra stamina point and a higher points costs so I just assumed they were large. However it does not note them as large like it does for the Austrians. Basically now my French battalions are 24 figures and I need to figure out if I should do the same for the Russians or bump them up to 32 for a large battalion. Thanks in advance for the help!

ScottWashburn Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Jan 2019 4:41 p.m. PST

It would depend on the time period. Their strength varied considerably from campaign to campaign. (And this is true for almost all the armies). You should try to set battalion size based on the historical orders of battle.

Cooldude08 Jan 2019 4:59 p.m. PST

Thanks for the quick reply Scott! I'm looking mainly at 1812 and onward. I was just thinking about generally how I should size. I'm not really collecting towards a historical OOB at this juncture. This would be mainly for pickup type games or home brewed scenarios. Main reason I'm asking is because of unit frontage. If the Clash of Eagles book intends for the unit to be a standard frontage based on unit stats I don't want to make it too wide by turning into a large unit to face off against my standard frontage French. Hope that makes sense, it does in my mind!

Alcibiades08 Jan 2019 5:21 p.m. PST

While you can base your figures any way you wish, the stats for Russian battalions in CoE apply to a standard sized unit. I think this reflects the Russian's capacity to withstand a lot of punishment before abandoning the field. So, I would suggest your Russian battalions have the same number of figures as the French.

Cooldude08 Jan 2019 5:40 p.m. PST

Alcibiades-Thanks a bunch! That is what I was looking for. Really appreciate you and hope you have a great week!

14th NJ Vol Supporting Member of TMP09 Jan 2019 7:10 a.m. PST

One note, in late 1813 some Russian regiments were pretty shot up. They would combine the two battalions in the Regiment into one. This could result in a single battalion being 550 to 650 men as opposed to the "paper" strength of 480. So your brigade could have one large battalion & two standard sized or one large, one standard, one small. Lots of possibilities. A good OOB can help.

Trajanus09 Jan 2019 7:19 a.m. PST

Just to throw a spanner (no need to catch it) the silly boys at Warlord Games have changed this categorisation in Black Powder 2.

Figures are no longer the measure of small/standard/large units

They have switched to frontage of the unit in Line, set against distances given in the rules. It may be that there is some correlation between the old number of figures and the new frontage, based on their recommend frontage per figure, but I haven't bothered to work that one out.

There again, as there are plenty of things that don't appear in the 2nd Edition that are in either Albion Triumphant, or Clash of Eagles, or indeed vice versa, you may as well do as you like!

Garde de Paris Supporting Member of TMP09 Jan 2019 11:29 a.m. PST

We began gaming back in the 1960's using the Fred Vietmeyer system of 1:20. I have the original Jack Scruby books with diagrams of units for each army, but cannot access them – long in storage. Of Course, the French line and light were 36 figures; the Guard Grenadiers and Chasseurs 32 figures. Each had 3 or 4 man additional "command stands." We used 36 and 32, did not do the command as an independent stand.

British were done as 30 figures per battalion, but we went with 40 – 4 figures per company.

Austrian battalions were gigantic, with 6 companies of 8 figures each! I recall one gamer did 2, and we all ran for the rear when they came on the board!

I recall the Russian units were much smaller, each with a grenadier and jager. the rest musketeers, but as we realized we could NOT do all armies in all theaters, we focused on the Peninsular War in Spain. My 48 (each) Willy Russians; Austrian grenadiers; Austrian line; Prussian line Bavarians were all converted to Spanish figures and some Portuguese in 30 mm.

Might anyone have access to that old system, and supply the Russian data?

GdeP

EagleSixFive09 Jan 2019 12:00 p.m. PST

My copy of CoE is on loan at the moment. From memory, the extra Stamina represents the Russian Infantries stoicism in combat and is not related to unit size at all.

khanscom09 Jan 2019 6:19 p.m. PST

From R.K. Riehn's "1812: Napoleon's Russian Campaign"

At the start of the campaign the line infantry regiments fielded 2 bns. (1st and 3rd) with the 2nd bns. being reduced to fill the ranks of the other two-- these fielding an average of 500 men. The 2nd battalions absorbed new recruits, but had their grenadier companies stripped to create a number of combined grenadier battalions.

khanscom09 Jan 2019 6:25 p.m. PST

@Garde de Paris:

I don't have the Vietmeyer work, but "The Courier" V.1, N.2 had an article by Louis Bloom describing much of it. Russian infantry was organized as 4x 5- figure stands, but he notes that this is closer to representing the much reduced establishment of 1813, rather than that of 1812.

Garde de Paris Supporting Member of TMP10 Jan 2019 11:23 a.m. PST

Hello Khanscom,

That sounds like the Vietmeyer system. a 3man stand of grenadiers with a 2 man stand of lights. then 3 stands of 5 musketeers. Smallest units they depicted, as I recall.

Anyone from Russian able to tell us more – earlier periods?

GdeP

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