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"US TD HE allocation?" Topic


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World War Two on the Land

841 hits since 6 Jan 2019
©1994-2019 Bill Armintrout
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Fred Cartwright06 Jan 2019 9:21 a.m. PST

Anyone know if US TD battalions had HE rounds allocated, both Towed and SP? If so what would the mix be, again both for Towed and SP?

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP06 Jan 2019 9:54 a.m. PST

They did. Especially the SP like M-10, M-18 and the M-36. They carried a mix of AP, HE and Smoke. Though the field manuals on their employment stated they needed to carry a load to meet the primary mission (engaging enemy tanks) they did not specify a standard load.

It should be noted that by 44-45 in NW Europe the TDs were firing more HE rounds than AP. One problem was when a TD battalion was allocated to an infantry division they tended to get treated as tanks and so lots of HE support missions.

Fred Cartwright06 Jan 2019 10:24 a.m. PST

Thanks. I suspected as much, but was interested in finding out what a typical load out might look like. If a towed TD unit was in a defensive position would they have 20%? 30%? or more HE?

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP06 Jan 2019 10:49 a.m. PST

I suspect it varied depending on the anticipated mission. This is from FM 18-5 18 July 1944 Tactical Employment Tank Destroyer Unit on secondary missions (primary, as mentioned, was engaging tanks).
(2) Employment of tank destroyers on secondary
missions is a command decision. When ammunition
requirements for reinforcing artillery missions exceed the
supply facilities of the unit, higher headquarters assumes
the responsibility for supplying the additional ammunition
required. Except in an emergency, the organic
ammunition loads of tank destroyer units should remain
intact for primary missions.
(3) Most secondary missions require the use of highexplosive
ammunition. Since the trajectory of antitank
guns is too flat for the execution of many missions,
reduced charges are often preferable.

Personal logo Herkybird Supporting Member of TMP06 Jan 2019 11:52 a.m. PST

I have read of TD crews swapping their HVAP rounds for HE with 76mm tanks.

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP06 Jan 2019 12:08 p.m. PST

Not surprising as TD units were given priority for HVAP rounds. Am sure other things were traded for them as well!

Thresher0106 Jan 2019 12:49 p.m. PST

Perhaps a good guess for a starting point might be derived from looking at normal tank allocations – 75mm and 76mm, and then adjusting from there.

I'm guessing without looking at those, that 25% – 40% for HE might be about right, depending upon the assigned missions, with perhaps another 5% – 10% for smoke/white phosphorus/other. Don't know if they had a cannister round for the 3" gun.

So, perhaps 60% – 70% AP/HVAP, with I suspect at least a minimum of 50% anti-tank rounds for the 3" guns.

ecaminis Supporting Member of TMP06 Jan 2019 12:51 p.m. PST

The Osprey M-18 book says the average TD received only 1 round of HVAP per month. So not much swapping could have occurred to the average TD crew

Thresher0106 Jan 2019 2:38 p.m. PST

I also find it interesting they'd use M-10s in the indirect fire role, but have seen the pics of them run up on embankments to permit more gun elevation to do just that.

From what I've read, the 3" HE rounds were sub-par compared to those of the 75mm gun, as far as burst effectiveness goes.

Fred Cartwright06 Jan 2019 3:49 p.m. PST

So, perhaps 60% 70% AP/HVAP, with I suspect at least a minimum of 50% anti-tank rounds for the 3" guns.

Thanks that is a good ballpark to start with. Trying to get a feel for how much HE the various TD units attached to units in the Ardennes had, like the towed TD battalion attached to 14th Cavalry Group in the Losheim gap. They were primarily attached to bolster AT defence. There were some separate artillery battalions attached to boost the artillery support and units like the 14th Cavalry Group could request support from the division they were attached to.

Thresher0106 Jan 2019 4:07 p.m. PST

Hi Fred,

Sorry I wasn't clear. I'm using 3" guns since it's just shorter to write, for the 76.2mm guns used on both the M-10s and the trailer drawn A/T guns.

If you wanted to pin me down, I'd say 60% 65% A/T rounds for both types of TD weapons (SP and ground mounts), but that's just a guess.

Sounds like our interests are similar, since I'm currently researching events/encounters/battles for the Battle of the Bulge as well.

Looks like there are lots of good opportunities for small unit actions at the sharp end for both sides, and for setting up a series of linked battles, if desired, for running a campaign too, either historically based, and/or just a generalized theme based upon the numerous events that occurred in the Ardennes.

Fred Cartwright06 Jan 2019 4:51 p.m. PST

Yes looks like we are doing the same thing. The Ardennes makes for some very interesting low level actions with unusual units. The cavalry units are a good example. Villages held by individual troops bolstered with a section of towed TD's. Heavy on automatic weapons, but low on numbers of troops, they put up a good defence to start with. Then there are the various groups of combat engineers, rear area cooks and bottle washers, scratch relief forces based around a few light tanks etc.

Thresher0106 Jan 2019 7:38 p.m. PST

Hmmm, found this on Wikipedia's page for the M-10:

"Tank destroyers in the European Theater fired approximately 11 high-explosive (HE) rounds for every round of armor-piercing (AP) ammunition, an indication of their use in general support duties in addition to the intended mission of anti-tank defense".

Here's more conjecture on a Battlefront forum:

"In a thread here, I found out that the general distribution for a 75mm Sherman variant was 70% HE, 20% AP and 10% WP. This was actually very close to an estimate we already had in place, just reversed for HE/AP.

Where can I find an approximate loadout for more vehicles, from other nations?

Also, how would specialty munitions factor into the distribution, such as HVAP, APDS and APCR?

I also found out that the general issue of HVAP was 1-3 per Tanks 5-10 per Tank Destroyer and for APDS was 5-10 per Tank. How many rounds of APDS would be distributed to anti-tank crews (both towed and self-propelled), and would the American 57mm Gun M1 have about the same issued to them?".

"Well, I don't know if I want to get that in depth on the subject, I was kind of hoping there'd be more information out there like the Osprey book, with the percentages. I know it's probably not that simple, but that was definitely a great find. If anything, we could probably just use that as a base and guess as to what a crew might have based on doctrine and what not. So, for example, a 76mm Sherman might have a 70/20/10% split in favor of AP/HE/HVAP (50/14/7 rounds respectively) or something like that (since the 76mm HE performed less favorably tha the 75mm). I would assume that Germans would probably have a similar split, but probably more in favor of AP than HE, but I don't know anything about that other than simple guessing".

"Would it be safe to assume that any shared vehicles, like the 6-pounder in American service (57mm Gun M1), would use ammunition based on their originating country? For example, since 57mm Gun M1s used APDS, did M10 Tank Destroyers in British service use HVAP?

So far, and until better sources are found to change this, I think I will go with something like this:

M4, M4A1, M4A3: 70/20/10% (HE/AP/WP)

M4A3(76)W: 70/25/5% (HE/AP/HVAP)

M10, M18, M36: 20/60/20% (HE/AP/HVAP)

Sherman V: 70/20/10% (HE/AP/WP)

Sherman VC: 70/20/10% (HE/AP/APDS)

M10: 20/60/20% (HE/AP/HVAP?)

M10C: 20/60/20% (HE/AP/APDS)

I haven't found any data for the Germans, but I would assume that Panzers/Panthers/Tigers would have a similar distribution to Allied tanks, and Marders/Jagdpanzers/etc. would have a similar distribution to Allied tank destroyers. Obviously APCR would be a much smaller factor for them".

Just for grins, here's info on the German 75mm Pak 40 A/T guns too:

"Are you sure that they actually "favoured" HEAT rounds towards the end of the war? Evidently, a lot of HEAT warheads were made for Panzerfaust and -schreck and there were some production of light guns, but high-velocity tank and anti-tank guns continued to fire the standard APCBC round up to wars end.
The figures I've seen indicate that the expenditure of HEAT rounds for high-velocity guns actually dropped from 1943 to 1945.

% HEAT of all AP rounds fired (based on Hahn)

PaK 40:

1942: 24%

1943: 48%

1944: 30%

1945: 6% (January+February)

KwK 40:

1942: ?

1943: 54%

1944: 27%

1945: 7% (January & February)

Some figures even suggest that production of HEAT rounds for the high-velocity guns all but ceased after 1943.

German combat reports from 1943 shows that the HEAT rounds were not particularily effective, considerably more HEAT rounds being needed to set an enemy tank on fire than APCBC rounds (IIRC about eight HEAT rounds vs three APCBC rounds).

IIRC, all German HEAT rounds were fired at low to medium velocity (350-550 m/s), which would also make them usefull only for shorter ranges

Furthermore, large amounts of Panzerfaust and schreck rounds were rejected by the German Army as defective, suggesting that all was not well with Germany manufacture of these rounds. A British test from 1944 showed that the design of German HEAT rounds – in this case the 3kg Hohlladung – was not bad. They built a copy which worked quite well. But the captured rounds from German massproduction did not perform nearly as well.

This suggest to me, that even though WWII HEAT rounds were rather primitive, they still needed carefull manufacturing and assembly to work properly. And German industry by 1944-45 had problems meeting the standards needed, at least when it came to HEAT production".

All of the non-Wiki quotes were taken from here:

link

Starfury Rider07 Jan 2019 4:59 a.m. PST

There was a very good link on the earlier post about the Towed TD Platoon org. That includes a page from the notebook of a serving officer re ammunition in terms of unit of fire for the Battalion. I know that UF was different to load out, but it gives for the 3-inch piece a total of 900 rounds AP and 900 rounds HE. That would suggest a 50/50 split of AP/HE to my mind. Also that works out to 50 rounds per gun. The SP M10 could carry 54 rounds which is quite close.

Gary

Aethelflaeda was framed07 Jan 2019 5:10 a.m. PST

Don't forget to include the paint rounds in the load out.

Fred Cartwright07 Jan 2019 6:17 a.m. PST

Also that works out to 50 rounds per gun.

Thanks that is useful. I am guessing that while in static positions they would be able to stockpile ammo so each gun would have more than the 50 rounds. However as discussed in the previous thread there isn't a lot of space in the M3 halftracks for ammo, so if the guns had to move they may have only a limited supply with them.

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP07 Jan 2019 6:55 a.m. PST

Interesting discussion!

While not a typical load out, and certainly very general, Zaloga in the Osprey New Vanguard book M4 (76mm) Sherman Medium Tank 1943-65 makes the following statement:
"During the war US tankers on average employed 70 percent high explosive, 20 percent armor-piercing, and 10 percent smoke ammunition".

On the question of HVAP while the rounds were prioritized for TDs it was mainly for the M-10 which may account for the M-18 getting a pittance. From the same source Zaloga states: "By early March 1945, a total of about 18,000 rounds of HVAP had been delivered to the ETO of which about 7550 were 76mm rounds (42 percent) and the rest 3-inch ammunition for the M10 tank destroyers." I must admit not sure about the distinction since both the 3" and the 76 are listed as using the standard T4 (M93) HVAP round. But believe the allocation is correct.

As to the quote on 11 HE to 1 AP I have seen this quote pop up in several places but the problem I have is there is no supporting evidence. Where did this number come from? Anecdotal? A specific unit report? Supply records? Not that I doubt it but would like to see where they came up with this.

I do know there is an interesting example in Green's M4 Sherman at War:
"The ratio could vary by unit: From August 3 to December 31, 1944 the 13th Tank Battalion fired 55 rounds of M62 APC-T armor piercing versus 19,634 rounds of M42 high explosive."

donlowry07 Jan 2019 8:16 a.m. PST

Don't forget: Just because they didn't fire 'em doesn't mean they didn't carry 'em.

Andy ONeill07 Jan 2019 8:39 a.m. PST

I seem to recall pictures of m4 on ramps firing indirect and they shells stacked ready.
I also seem to recall the figure 300 for rounds per tank used on one of these ops.

I would think handing shells in would be a lot easier for an open turret.
Not that I've ever even tried picking up a 75mm shell.
It'd certainly be a whole load safer than acting as close support for some infantry.

Starfury Rider07 Jan 2019 11:53 a.m. PST

This thread reminded me of a few pages I found on Fold3, which I 'think' are First US Army Group reports on ammunition states from early 1944. There are a few pages that detail certain pieces of ordnance and provide a Basic Load and a Weapon Basis. The Basic Load is something I've been trying to pin down for various US weapons, but has proven elusive. You've also got Unit of Fire and something termed Days of Supply in the mix as well.

Anyway, there is a clear entry for 3-inch guns;

Shell, HE, M42A1 – 50% – 63,936 Basic Load – 576 weapons
Projectile, AP M79, or APC M62 – 50% – as above

That gives a basic load of 111 AP and 111 HE per gun, which I know is an odd number. I've still not found anything on rounds per gun as carried on unit transport for TD units other than what the SP guns could carry.

The 1941 US Atk Coy manual reckoned that 80 rounds of 37-mm ammn would be sufficient for 'one battle mission', and each gun tower carried this amount, while the Section leader's vehicle carried 160 rounds (he lead two guns).

The 1943 Inf Regt reference book gives a load of 60 rounds of 57-mm ammn for each gun of the Atk Pls, both in the Bns and the Regtl Coy. No suggestion of how they were split between AP and HE. And for some reason, no 57-mm is listed on the same document that shows the other guns from 1944.

By comparison, the 1943-45 RA first line load for a 6-pdr was 96 rounds per gun, for the 17-pdr 90 rounds per gun, and for the 3-inch M10 also 90 rounds per gun. I don't think I've actually seen a load for a SP Valentine 17-pdr.

Gary

Eclaireur07 Jan 2019 12:58 p.m. PST

Fred – isn't the allocation entirely dependent on the stage of the war and unit mission? I know the British tank ammo load outs changed after the Normandy breakout because they encountered far fewer German tanks, but more hand held anti-tank weapons and AT guns.
The US doctrinal attempt to separate TD from tank units rather reminds me of the early war British division between infantry tanks and cruisers. Somehow, you're expecting the enemy you find on the battlefield to conform to your own tactical theology. Whereas an M10 on appearing on the horizon was likely to be treated 'like any other tank' by the enemy who spotted it…
EC

Fred Cartwright07 Jan 2019 3:00 p.m. PST

That gives a basic load of 111 AP and 111 HE per gun, which I know is an odd number. I've still not found anything on rounds per gun as carried on unit transport for TD units other than what the SP guns could carry.

That is a lot of ammo! The rounds weigh about 12kg each (HE or AP) so that is 10.6 metric tons for a platoon. There is no way you could carry that much in the platoon transport of 4 M3's (carrying the gun crews as well), 1 1.5 ton truck, a 1 ton trailer and 4 jeeps. I would have thought 50 rounds per gun, 25 each of AP and HE would be about the limit for the integral transport.

Fred isn't the allocation entirely dependent on the stage of the war and unit mission?

Indeed, but I am trying to establish what the basic mix was for the default TD role. That would give me a ballpark figure to base my scenarios on. I will then use a dice throw to give the actual figure for each platoon, which will be close enough for me.

Griefbringer07 Jan 2019 11:29 p.m. PST

Anyway, there is a clear entry for 3-inch guns;

Shell, HE, M42A1 50% 63,936 Basic Load 576 weapons
Projectile, AP M79, or APC M62 50% as above

That gives a basic load of 111 AP and 111 HE per gun, which I know is an odd number.

It is also given for 576 weapons, which is equivalent to 16 battalions of 36 guns.

Which makes me think, what sort of ammo logistics assets were there at company/battalion level for the TD units? I presume that there would be an ammo platoon of some sort at the battalion level, but would there also be logistic elements at the company level?

Lion in the Stars08 Jan 2019 1:14 a.m. PST

Well, the M10s carried 54 rounds, so I'd expect the towed M5 guns to have about the same available.

Fred Cartwright08 Jan 2019 3:19 a.m. PST

Which makes me think, what sort of ammo logistics assets were there at company/battalion level for the TD units?

Nothing at company level. There are 6 2.5t trucks with 6 ammo trailers at battalion level. That is 1 truck and trailer per 6 guns.

Griefbringer08 Jan 2019 4:12 a.m. PST

Thanks for the info, 6 ammo trucks does not sound very much for an "independent" gun battalion.

Presuming that each of those ammo trucks (with trailer) would be able to cart around 300 rounds, that would make 50 per gun.

Fred Cartwright08 Jan 2019 10:13 a.m. PST

I think the trucks at battalion would shuttle back and forth between ammo dumps. 2 trucks and trailers could resupply a company. In a static position like the Ardennes before the offensive they could stockpile ammo with the guns and resupply relatively easily. Not so easy when rapidly advancing or the chaos in the initial stages of the offensive when units were moving frequently.

Skarper08 Jan 2019 7:37 p.m. PST

If in the front line the towed TDs would not fire all that much unless the enemy made a serious attack. If they have about 100 rounds available per gun they would not run out before they were knocked out.

I don't have sources for this – it just seems logical.

Blutarski08 Jan 2019 9:45 p.m. PST

Just a note, "Smoke" invariably meant WP.

B

Starfury Rider09 Jan 2019 11:41 a.m. PST

I had an amble round the internet for anything on basic loads for TD units, largely to no avail. Then I did find a nice little treasure chest at this site –

link

Scroll down to Item 13, Reference Data for TD units.

It's a May 1943 document covering ammunition allowance in very great detail. Following caveats for this particular discussion; it centres on the SP TD Bn, and then in its first Jan43 format (not intrinsically different from the Mar44 T/O for SP units) and is also prior to major experience and changes that would result from such.

Still, a wonderful find and perhaps there's one somewhere out there for a Tank Bn, or even an Armd Inf Bn, or, or…

What it does offer is a basic ammunition load figure for the 3-inch gun of;

On SP gun – 54 (which we kinda already knew)
In 1-ton trailer – 32 (1 per TD Pl)
On Bn amn vehs – 612

Total (Bn) – 2844

The SP Bn had six 2.5-ton trucks each towing a 1-ton trailer for ammunition duties, as found in the towed version. That works out to 102 rounds per trk/trl combi, which might give 70 on the trk and 32 in the trailer.

The notes give an AP/HE split of 75%/25% (same as for RA Atk units), though again this is largely before major deployment of TDs in the later stages of North Africa and into the Med.

Also I recommend a check through the manuals listed (all of which are found over at CGSC as well). They don't give figures on rounds carried but do outline the resupply system, which did as mentioned above envisage a shuttle system from Bn to guns.

Gary

Fred Cartwright09 Jan 2019 2:17 p.m. PST

I had an amble round the internet for anything on basic loads for TD units, largely to no avail. Then I did find a nice little treasure chest at this site

That is a great find. Interesting info about the amount of rounds carried by the 2.5t truck and 1t trailer. If a 2.5t truck only carried 70 rounds then the M3 half tracks could only have carried half a dozen rounds considering they had to carry the gun crew too.
The 75/25 AP/HE load split I presume was for the standard TD mission.

Lee49409 Jan 2019 9:33 p.m. PST

I suspect the "book" break down of ammo type probably varied in the field due to the variations in logistics, local combat conditions and crew preferences from theater to theater perhaps even division to division. The US Sherman and to a large extent TDs (not guns but AFVs) spent most of their time firing HE or WP and not AP.

Even in the well publicized battles like the Bulge most tankers spent their day blowing up mg nests and "soft" targets rather than engaging enemy armor. Further, one common US tactic (discussed in an earlier thread) was to use rapid HE fire to "suppress" the larger German tanks, like tigers, which could not be penetrated by AP. Finally crews liked to carry as much ammo as possible.

Bottom line in reality many crews probably exceeded the "book" ammo load with a bias toward HE and WP rather than AP. Just my 2 cents. Cheers!

Fred Cartwright10 Jan 2019 2:43 a.m. PST

I suspect the "book" break down of ammo type probably varied in the field due to the variations in logistics, local combat conditions and crew preferences from theater to theater perhaps even division to division.

Probably less so with towed TD units who didn't have much opportunity to engage soft targets unless attacked.
On the potential ammo loads for the vehicles I am wondering about the load for the 2.5t truck and trailer. 102 rounds seems low when a Sherman could carry 71.

Griefbringer10 Jan 2019 3:38 a.m. PST

On the potential ammo loads for the vehicles I am wondering about the load for the 2.5t truck and trailer. 102 rounds seems low

I thought the same, until I checked the document that Gary referred to. Looks like the battalion ammo section carried also a noticeable load of small arms ammo, 37 mm ammo and bazooka rockets. In pounds, the ammo load split is as follows:

- 3" gun ammo: 23868
- 37 mm gun ammo: 591
- Bazooka ammo: 4216
- Small arms ammo: 12425
- Total: 41100

In other words, the 3" gun ammo amounts to only 58 w/w% load for the ammo trucks. Also, the weight given for a box of 4 rounds of 3" gun APC ammo is 156 pounds a lot of the carried weight is actually packaging material. If the whole ammo load would be in just 3" gun rounds, then each truck+trailer combo could transport around 44 boxes or 176 rounds of ammunition.

Would be interesting to see the dimensions of the ammo boxes – you probably won't fit very many of those on the back of M3 halftrack, if you also need to fit 6-8 crewmen there.

It is interesting to notice that in addition to the 2844 rounds of 3" gun ammo, the battalion was authorised 1240 antitank rockets for the bazookas and 384 anti-tank mines.

deephorse10 Jan 2019 4:31 a.m. PST

I haven't found any data for the Germans, but I would assume that Panzers/Panthers/Tigers would have a similar distribution to Allied tanks, and Marders/Jagdpanzers/etc. would have a similar distribution to Allied tank destroyers.

Nuts & Bolts #37 says that a Panzerjager company equipped with the Jagdpanzer IV L48 carried a 50:50 split of AP/HE

Starfury Rider10 Jan 2019 4:52 a.m. PST

This was the vehicle load for the little brother (or cousin?) of the TD Pl, that for the 57-mm Gun Pl in an Inf Regt/Bn; (and this is in abbreviated form)

Pl HQ – 1 truck, 1/4-ton
Offr, SSgt, Dvr
2 CE-11 reel eqpts, 1 SCR-300 radio, signal lamp, 1 pyrotechnic projector and 10 signals, aircraft.
estimated weight 455 pounds (less personnel and truck T/E)

1st Sqd – Sgt, Cpl, 4 cannoneers, 3 amn bearers, Dvr – 1.5-ton truck
1 panel set, 1 cam net, pick+saw+shovel, 2 Atk RL (12 rockets), 5 drag ropes, 60 rds (57-mm), spares set for gun.
estimated weight 2825 pounds (less personnel and truck T/E)

2nd Sqd – Sgt, Cpl, 4 cannoneers, 3 amn bearers, Dvr – 1.5-ton truck
1 panel set, 1 cam net, pick+saw+shovel, 2 Atk RL (12 rockets), 5 drag ropes, 60 rds (57-mm), 1 M2 .50-cal, 660 rnds, tripod and spares.
estimated weight 3130 pounds (less personnel and truck T/E)

3rd Sqd – Sgt, Cpl, 4 cannoneers, 3 amn bearers, Dvr – 1.5-ton truck
1 panel set, 1 cam net, pick+saw+shovel, 2 Atk RL (12 rockets), 5 drag ropes, 60 rds (57-mm).
estimated weight 2720 pounds (less personnel and truck T/E)

I suspect those on the forums who've actually loaded military vehicles might recognise the difference between what they should carry, what they could carry, and what they did carry!

Gary

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP10 Jan 2019 6:50 a.m. PST

As mentioned above FM 18-5 July 1944 (which would have had the advantage of data from at least Tunisia and Sicily) contained the comment:
"Except in an emergency, the organic
ammunition loads of tank destroyer units should remain
intact for primary missions."

Which to mean translates to the same 75/25 split Gary found. Now am sure that reinforced with data from early engagements in NW Europe this may have changed. Also GIs have a propensity for disregarding many rules and regulations that seem to fly in the face of reality. But it does give a glimpse into what a standard load out might have been for at least the Normandy campaign.

As to organic resupply the manual also states:
"When ammunition
requirements for reinforcing artillery missions exceed the
supply facilities of the unit, higher headquarters assumes
the responsibility for supplying the additional ammunition
required."

Which implies when HE over and above that normally allocated to the Battalion were necessary that higher HQs would supply both the ammunition and vehicles to augment the Battalion.

Fred Cartwright10 Jan 2019 8:04 a.m. PST

In other words, the 3" gun ammo amounts to only 58 w/w% load for the ammo trucks.

That would explain it. Tanks can dispense with the boxes and packing and just shove the rounds in the bins.

Would be interesting to see the dimensions of the ammo boxes you probably won't fit very many of those on the back of M3 halftrack, if you also need to fit 6-8 crewmen there.

Well the rounds were 32" long and obviously 3+" in diameter so I would guess a box with 6 rounds would be at least 18" x 18" x 36". Depends how bulky the packing is. The TO&E list 10 men for the track that could seat 12, but likely they are a bit under strength so 8 or 9 men would be more common I think. Probably not much less than 8, the M5 was a big gun weighing just under 4,900lbs, which is a lot to manhandle when you need to emplace or hook up the gun.

Starfury Rider15 Jan 2019 12:18 p.m. PST

I asked the question of how many rounds for the towed 3-inch TDs on another forum and got the below linked response;

link

In short 16 rounds on the halftrack and a further 72 in the single Platoon trailer, making 34 rounds per gun. 16 rounds would be easier to fit in to the halftrack, and there were two fewer seats required for the firing detachment (10 men) than for a Rifle Squad (12 men), which should have freed up some space.

I couldn't find anything on the M10 trailer or its likely stowage capacity, beyond it being a 'short' ton (2000lbs).

Gary

Fred Cartwright15 Jan 2019 2:04 p.m. PST

72 rounds is about 1,900lbs, so with the packing that's about right for a 1t trailer.
16 rounds on the track seems right too. That's only 4 of HE if the 75/25 split is stuck too.

Thresher0115 Jan 2019 10:20 p.m. PST

For the recon troop of an M-8 A.C. unit, there are 5 bazookas listed in the TO&E. There are also 5 x halftracks, so presumably each halftrack gets one bazooka each, which sounds about right to me.

Surprised to see two of those listed for the trucks mentioned above.

There was no mention of the number of rounds of ammo for the rocket launchers.

Griefbringer16 Jan 2019 8:42 a.m. PST

16 rounds on the track seems right too. That's only 4 of HE if the 75/25 split is stuck too.

Considering that the ammo is issued in boxes of 4 rounds of a single type, that sounds logical.

That said, 72 rounds on the ammo truck is equivalent to 18 boxes, which does not split nicely into 75/25 ratio; you would end up with 12 boxes of AP, 4 of HE and 2 of something.

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP16 Jan 2019 11:00 a.m. PST

Possibly smoke. And while one truck doesnt split nicely, 2 trucks would.

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