"Tolerance in Wargaming" Topic

According to a recent survey – TMP link – many gamers feel there needs to be "more tolerance for all kinds of gamers."

What should be done to increase tolerance in the hobby?

I generally just don't put up with intolerance…

What kinds of intolerance are people seeing?

Not even sure what that means; Sounds like a politician saying "I support good and am against bad". Don't really care what your political, religious, gender/sex beliefs are so long as you aren't behaving like a boor. Does that make me intolernat of boors? Maybe so.

Hard core historical gamers are sometimes intolerant of tournament gamers. I've seen them here on TMP wanting to ban them from historical conventions.
And the same want to ban fantasy and science fiction games.
A recent poll had a few wanting to force vendors at conventions to only carry historical products.

And then there was a book review in Strategy and Tactics magazine giving a puzzled review of a Napoleonic guide that gave facing colors. "This has nothing to do with wargaming!"

It boils down to "my is the only way to play with toy soldiers, or to pretend that I'm Robert E Lee!"

I remember going back to college to play miniatures in the morning, D&D in the evening and Diplomacy into the wee hours. With a boardgame like Machiavelli thrown in on Sunday.
That's shocking to some, that we would tolerate other forms of wargaming.

That's the intolerance this is about. It has nothing to do with race or religion or whatever.

You can't do anything to "increase tolerance".
You're either tolerant or a dick. At this stage in your life, that's the rut you are in.

I respect the person but not necessarily their moral or political views. "tolerance" is often a term used as a PC thinking that indicates we must accept any deviant behavior as OK. Any more on that subject from me & I'll be DH'd.

it means to tolerate it – not accept, agree or anything else.

I voted for "more tolerance for all kinds of gamers." I did not read it in a political sense but in the sense as Winston describes it. There are too many gamers who cast aspersions on those who play toy soldiers differently than them. For example, I prefer very small scales (e.g 2-3mm) but topics about these scales inevitably draw derogatory comments on this site. Why waste time and energy disparaging others? If it's not your cup of tea, just walk on by. You don't need to be negative about other people's choices.

I love what's done with "intolerance" these days. Query: is it "intolerant" of Civil War re-enactors to insist that Napoleonic and WWII re-enactors form in separate units and not in theirs? Or of chess clubs not to organize bridge tournaments? Are model railroad associations expected to include Napoleonic dioramas? Is the Seven Years War Association under a moral obligation to host WWII games?

Sometimes you have to recognize that people are doing separate things. And the smaller your minority is, the more you need to do it by yourselves to get a critical mass, and to encourage things like vendor support. Hence the SYWA Convention--and, once upon a time, the Historical Miniatures Gaming Society. These days, HMGS is getting VERY tolerant--a declining percentage of historical games, a declining number of dealers in historical gaming products--and a declining attendance.

Look, if you just want to swamp historical miniatures in a sea of 40K players, do it and be done. But spare me the lectures about a moral principle being involved.

I have no problem with robert piepenbrink's point. If people of a certain interest which to gather together then that's their business. For example, I would have no issue with HMGS prohibiting 40K at their conventions. If I want to play 40K I'll just go elsewhere. I just hate it when gamers bad-mouth other gamers' preferences.

Warwell's perfectly right--and as a sometime picogamer, I know what he's talking about. Why waste energy denouncing a hobby one does not practice?

But then, as my son tells me, I engage in "boring linear warfare." I spruced off and mailed to him his Necromunda armies--which I do not play--but evidently I'm the intolerant one.

If I can't abide intolerant people does that make me intolerant? I hate myself, I'm so confused, please help me Obi Wan.

I agree with robert piepenbrink.

Tom

Foxweasel and I are going to start a new club: "DTIP"
Death To Intolerant People
Join the club, we'll have cookies of various flavors. But none of those disgusting, reprehensible and immoral oatmeal cookies.

On a more serious note, how do you force or encourage someone to become more tolerant? In my limited experience, when you try to expose an intolerant person to their "enemy" they just get indignant.

As far as I'm concerned if it makes them happy let them do it we all have slightly different interests

Take care

Andy

Intolerance … its a movie that I've seen a few times.

I am not involved enough in the overall aspect of "the hobby", I suppose, to notice. I don't like the noise of conventions, so I don't go to them. I just play what I like with friends I enjoy gaming with. I am 68 years old, and I have experimented enough to know what I like.

* Follow Wheaton's Law

we'll have cookies of various flavors

WARNING: Do not choose the wrong cookie. Unbelievers will be dealt with appropriately.

It appears in today's society you find intolerance in many aspects of daily life. Not just wargaming …

Not just intolerance, Legion 4: there is also Discrimination.

I once had to sit through an entirely too long sermon in which the minister lamented living in "a society in which discrimination exists." Afterward, I asked him "but Preacher, aren't we supposed to discriminate between smart and stupid choices? And don't you want me to discriminate between good and evil?" He had no answer. In certain circles, intolerance is inherently a Bad Thing--though of course "zero tolerance" is a Good Thing--and discrimination means making choices the speaker disapproves of.

Hard to have a conversation when the meaning of words keeps shifting.

I am for what I am for and against what I'm against. I am tolerant of anything in between, but don't expect me to endorse or condemn it: see clause 1.

So many posts and not one:

"I'm sure we all agree that we ought to love one another and I know there are people in the world that do not love their fellow human beings and I hate people like that!' – Tom Lehrer

You can play whatever the heck you want – I don't care. I won't be joining you but I don't care. Some people think that is insulting somehow. Even worse are the extroverts that seem to think introverts have a problem and being extroverts they feel compelled to say so.

Winston Smith made a good point, though I think that the "One True Way" of gaming can also include:

1.) Gaming only the one true historical period (i.e. War of the Jenkins Ear) and despising all of the heretics that play other, ridiculous periods.

2.) Gaming only with models in the one true size (i.e. 18.5 mm from the soles to the chin), and despising all the fraudsters and charlatans that manufacture models in other sizes.

3.) Gaming only with models based according to the one true basing norm (i.e. 17.5 x 42.5. mm for infantry base, with 7 figures per base) and getting seriously miffled at the thought of any other basing convention.

4.) Gaming only with the one true rules (i.e. Flames of Ears, 2nd edition, with the official errata) and heavily opposed to even reading any other, clearly inferior rules.

I presume that these sorts of gamers have been around at least since 1984.

Well, Andrew Walters, if you're gonna Tom Lehrer, then let's go all in.

National Brotherhood Week, Tom Lehrer

Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks.
To hate all but the right folks
Is an old established rule.

But during national brotherhood week, national brotherhood week,
Lena Horne and sheriff Clarke are dancing cheek to cheek.
It's fun to eulogize
The people you despise,
As long as you don't let 'em in your school.

Oh, the poor folks hate the rich folks,
And the rich folks hate the poor folks.
All of my folks hate all of your folks,
It's American as apple pie.

But during national brotherhood week, national brotherhood week,
New Yorkers love the Puerto Ricans 'cause it's very chic.
Step up and shake the hand
Of someone you can't stand.
You can tolerate him if you try.

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Muslims,
And everybody hates the Jews.

But during national brotherhood week, national brotherhood week,
It's national everyone-smile-at-one-another-hood week.
Be nice to people who
Are inferior to you.
It's only for a week, so have no fear.
Be grateful that it doesn't last all year!

I tried to get that song used for a Pentagon intel briefing once. The nuclear proliferation piece would have been "Who's Next?" But they went with the Elvis sighting instead.

youtu.be/QJ882QYzr-M

Winston said..

I remember going back to college to play miniatures in the morning, D&D in the evening and Diplomacy into the wee hours. With a boardgame like Machiavelli thrown in on Sunday.

That sounds like a pretty cool degree program.
Wish they had that when I went to college.

I like historical wargaming (board, miniature, PC), I don't like fantasy et al. But if someone runs a fantasy game I'll play it. They might not like what I like. But we all, in the end, like to simulate something, whether historical, imaginary or fantastical and use different methods of doing it.
At the end of the day, I sit down, throw a few dice and move some figures and chew the fat with some mates, or strangers. You make the effort to put anything together, I'll make the effort to play it and have fun because I'd hope you do the same for me,

cheers
Jon

Is it intolerant for fellow hobbyist to come together to celebrate their hobby? Why are historical gamers labeled intolerant when they only want to celebrate their hobby with like minded individuals?

Let's face it Fantasy/Science Fiction gaming has as much in common with Historical gaming as slot car racing has with model railroading. Both are legit and both are great, but they are different.

They may be related but S/F and historical gaming are two separate hobbies. I am not the only one who believes this but I maybe the only one to say it.

For some reason some S/F players have this fear of being seen as not serious hobbyist. To make them feel better they call Historical players elitist or intolerant. By participating in both would make some players seem less legit. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The local club I belong to is focused on historical gaming and we welcome anyone into our group. We don't care what they look like, how they dress, how they talk. We are open to anyone who wants to join our group.

The only requirement is that they share our hobby. I don't know how to get around that. We don't set up our games at the local quilting club or the RC airplane club or the fly fishing club, etc. Why would we?

There are plenty of clubs and groups locally that do S/F gaming and card gaming. We have members that do that. No problem with that. But when we meet, it is only about history and gaming. Yet we are labeled intolerant. We can't have our own club? We can't have our own convention? I would call that intolerant.

I AM INTOLERANT and PROUD OF IT. I DO NOT TOLERATE CHEATS, BAD MANNERS and OVERLY PC FOLK.

I have the right to do as I please as long is it does not acversly effect the livelyhood or freedom of other folk.
I AM INTOLERANT of folk who do not repect those freedoms.

The great philosopher Vince Gill observed that if we all liked the same thing, everyone would be hitting on his grandmother.

there is also Discrimination.

That is very true as well … And both intolerance and discrimination are in many cases on the same plate.

… and another bit of anecdotal evidence for my maxin, "There's nothing like a discussion of tolerance to bring out the worst in people." Or to put it in gaming terms, we might as well all be playing Diplomacy.

I'm with ZuluPaul on this one. The PC "tolerant ones" are moral or political positions. Do as I say, not as I do…or else we will categorize you as "intolerant" or "deplorable."

Nothing like a group of strawmen to build up and blow down, eh, Wolfie?

This looks like a very quiet thread

It was.

Thought it was about how much tolerance to apply to rifle range. Is it really 300m or 300m Plus or Minus 20m.

I only play in 15mm…..does this make me a BIGot? lol.

Intolerance?!?! I just will NOT stand for it!!!

Stryberg!!!! What kind of cookies?