"Russia's at it again versus Ukraine" Topic

Looks like Putin is creating trouble near Ukraine, in and above the Black Sea, and Sea of Azov:

link

Reportedly even, some Ukrainian vessels have been fired on, and boarded.

Or alternatively, Ukraine provoked a Russia.

Yea, I'm sure the latter is it, like when they "gave" Crimea to Russia, and "invited" Russian soldiers and Russian sympathizers with tanks, artillery, ATGMs, and other weapons to "settle" on Eastern Ukrainian territory, and then to fire on them regularly as a thank you for that "hospitality".

Looks like those "provocative" Ukrainians "have forced" the Russians to fire on, and seize three of their vessels:

link

"The unprecedented incident occurred in the Kerch Strait, a narrow waterway that gives access to the Sea of Azov that is used by Ukraine and Russia.

Ukraine's navy said the incident took place as three of its ships -- two small warships and a tugboat -- were heading through the strait for the port of Mariupol.

It said a Russian border guard vessel rammed the tugboat in "openly aggressive actions" and then fired on the ships, immobilising all three. Two Ukrainian soldiers were reportedly injured.

The ramming damaged the tug's engine, outer shell and guardrail, it added.

It also said the Kerch Strait was blocked by a tanker, and that Russian military aircraft were flying over the area".

There's a photo showing a tanker blocking the strait underneath the bridge (looks to be directly underneath, and parallel to it). Can't tell if it is Russian, Ukrainian, American, North Korean, or Chinese, but I have my suspicions……..

As long as Chief Party Commissar Putin (ex-KGB Colonel) thinks he's going to keep pushing.

Its a political strategy thats worked historically and he's realised so why not keep trying it?!

The Ukraine might be better off looking to Beijing to counter-balance the rebirth of Soviet Russia.

Hey nsolomon99, Crimea was taken from Ukraine during the Obama administration, and what did Obama do about…nothing. Try to keep up.

We've sent lethal weapons to the Ukrainians Last one sent MREs and bandages, as I recall.

@USAFpilot,
Need some new reading glasses? Read nsolomon99's post carefully. Nowhere does he make a statement about Crimea.

Cyrus, Crimea was part of Ukraine

Yep, tightened sanctions, giving them real defensive weapons instead of MREs (though, if you gave those to the Russians that might be outside the bounds of the Geneva Convention on cruelty, so…..), trying to get the EU to dump Russia as their supplier of natural gas, etc., etc..

Cyrus, Crimea was part of Ukraine

Just saying nsolomon99 never made a comment about Crimea in his post. I'm well aware about the politics/policies of heads of state.

Of course it was the Soviet Union who transferred Crimea from Russia to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954 so Putin was really just correcting a Soviet hangover error that should have been sorted out in 1991.

Unless you want to go back to the early eighteenth century and give it back to the Tartars, it is Russian really.

Putin was really just correcting a Soviet hangover error that should have been sorted out in 1991

Even assuming this is a correct interpretation, one country can't unilaterally 'correct an error' that involves taking territory away from its neighbor.

Unless they want to declare war, which is just about what Putin has done.

Can we have France back then?

Thresher.

This incident allows the Ukrainian president to declare martial law.

Martial law means that the elections that he is set to lose are suspended, along with control taken of the press and internet access.

Now tell me which side has most to gain from this confrontation.

Depends I guess on how much more territory and property, Russia illegally seizes I guess, doesn't it, Captainbrown.

USAF, you make an excellent point.

Historical facts are inconvenient and troubling things for some.

List of sanctions imposed for activities in the Ukraine is at link

Da.

Russia admits to firing on, and seizing the vessels:

link

There's video of a Russian ship ramming the bow of the tugboat too.

The so-called "frozen conflict" between Russia and Ukraine, which has claimed over 10,000 lives thus far (small compared to the tragedy in Syria but not insubstantial by European standards) has to be seen from the larger picture perspective of geopolitics. The march of democracy throughout the world in movements such as Arab Spring in the ME and colored revolutions in eastern Europe like Maidan in Ukraine had met much resistance and push-back after achieving some initial success, leaving the "inevitability of democracy" trumpeted in such works as Francis Fukuyama's then-seminal treatise "The End of History and the Last Man" in shambles.

It doesn't matter on whose watch (Obama's or Trump's) Crimea had reverted back to Russian possession, or even who happens to be the strongman in Russia for that matter. The Maiden Revolution which deposed an elected pro-Kremlin leader for a pro-western one likely to put Ukraine on the path to NATO and EU membership is simply unacceptable to Moscow, regardless of whether it's Putin, Medvedev or even Gorbachev/Yeltsin calling the shots.

Captainbrown,
Poroshenko specificly shortend the duration of the state of martial law to only 30 days to prevent it having an impact on the election. In fact the same session of the Rada that voted for martial law confirmed that the elections will be held as planned next year.

Yup, Ukraine provoked Russia just like Poland provoked Hitler. Oh, and like Georgia provoked Russia.

He has shortened it for now.

You'll need an attention span longer than thanksgiving to see how this plays out.

We've been watching Putin exploit and destabilize his neighbors for years now.

"The Maiden Revolution which deposed an elected pro-Kremlin leader for a pro-western one likely to put Ukraine on the path to NATO and EU membership is simply unacceptable to Moscow, regardless of whether it's Putin, Medvedev or even Gorbachev/Yeltsin calling the shots."

Oh. Well that makes it all right then.

Well that makes it all right then.

Not anymore "alright" than holding the entire eastern half of Europe hostage behind the "Iron Curtain" for 45 years after WWII, but sometimes that's just the way things are.

Realpolitik isn't a particularly moralistic school of political thought, like its direct opposite Idealpolitik.