historygamer | 13 Nov 2018 8:50 a.m. PST |
I know this is all anecdotal, but I was curious as to GMs' and players' experience on games. For GMs – how many ticket holders actually showed up? Were your games full? For players, how did your games go? Did the ones you registered for show up? Etc. My own experience – I had all four tickets for both of my games gone – on Friday night only one ticket holder showed up out of four. On Saturday I had two out of four. I had players for both games, though I had more players Saturday night than Friday night. The players were mainly walk-ups, as has been my past experience. I'm thinking going forward for future games only taking walk-ups as I wonder how many people don't even try to get into my games when all the tickets are gone. I'm sure other experiences may vary. Curious to hear from both sides of the table. Oh, and the GM Help Desk guys were great. |
PJ ONeill | 13 Nov 2018 9:26 a.m. PST |
My experience as a GM and player is that less than half of the ticket holders show up, this had been consistent over the last couple of cons. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that some of my friends were able to register online for 2 or 3 games per day. I would be interested to know how many (PEL listed) games were canceled, it looked like quite a few. |
Skip2a | 13 Nov 2018 9:30 a.m. PST |
It was the first time that my son and I decided to sign up for games. We couldn't get anything that we wanted (I had never gone for more than one day so I didn't know to sign up when I registered on line). We talked to GM's and were able to get in to the ones we wanted. We waited for people to no-show for one and the other the GM had 4 extra slots that he planned for walk on's. I like the idea of walk on games. One of the ones we were playing (to try out a rule set) had other people waiting for someone to die so they could respawn. We handed off our slots after about 3 turns so that they could give it a try. HAWKS guys were great and American Lardies were a great help! I did notice that some GM's are much more outgoing then others. Skip |
TRUgamer | 13 Nov 2018 9:50 a.m. PST |
So I ran two games: All 5 tickets were taken for both games on Saturday. 1 player showed up for my AM game which I reluctantly cancelled. Fortunately I was able to keep my game set-up on the same table for my PM game. 4 of 5 showed up for my PM game and I added 2 walk ups, so the game was full +1. Everyone seemed to have a great time and I did as well. I was awarded a PELA for my PM game. Go figure.
TRU |
bogdanwaz | 13 Nov 2018 9:52 a.m. PST |
I ran a game Friday night at 7:00 with slots for 8 players but I usually plan for a couple of extra slots for walk-up. I had all 8 ticket holders show up which I think is a first. I had preregistered to play in a game Saturday afternoon but got word a day or so before the conventions that it was cancelled. Saturday afternoon, I tried tried walking up to another game as a replacement but all their ticket holders (6) showed up. As an aside, my game was in the back of the Distelfink and conditions were pretty abysmal – it was lit only by a string of hanging work lights and the carpeting had been torn up. Despite that my players all seemed to have had a good time. I will say that the convention staff at the game desk were incredibly helpful in getting me a couple of extra tables when I realized that the table I was at was half the size of what I had requested. |
Virginia Tory | 13 Nov 2018 10:24 a.m. PST |
Registration started out interesting, being informed my name wasn't in the system. I figured it was a glitch since I was in the PEL and had received the email notifying me of the game moving up to Vista land. The Help Desk guys worked things out very quickly, so that was appreciated! Loading/unloading was OK--had to hand truck everything up the handicapped ramp, into the lobby and over to Vista--could have been worse. My game Friday at 2pm was full, and had a few additional people show up just in case there were vacancies. We were right inside the "Vista Windows" area. A blocked open door was an issue, so we closed it and opened the other one. It was warm and stuffy--as The Host often is, but the lighting was superior to the Stasi Prison lights we usually get in the Distelfink. Overall, not bad at all! Getting a PELA was nice, too! |
ViscountEric | 13 Nov 2018 10:29 a.m. PST |
As a GM: 0 Preregs. I started sweating when I had an empty table at the start of the slot, but then I realized my table was over two of the new heating vents. A half-hour in, I had passively procured four players and we had a rollicking good time for the remainder of the slot. As a Player: Two games and a paint class. All took place on time. Games were max capacity plus. Class had a few openings, but more personalized attention from the instructor. |
Hollywood | 13 Nov 2018 10:49 a.m. PST |
As a GM my Friday early evening game was full – four for four. My Saturday game had three registrants show up and I had an alternate on hand, so again a full game. |
CoffeeCooler | 13 Nov 2018 12:22 p.m. PST |
For my game, Friday 8 pm, all 6 tickets were prereg. Only 3 showed and I had two walk ups. I could have taken 2 additional players just in case. Games I prereg for I was the only one showed but we had 4 players. Second game I prereg for we had two prereg out of 12 show up. Two walk ups, GM managed to "volunteer" two additional folks to play. |
pzivh43 | 13 Nov 2018 12:42 p.m. PST |
Ran two scheduled games. Friday at 7pm was 4/6 tickets taken, and all showed up. Game went very well. Sat at 7pm game had all tickets taken and 7 of 8 showed up. Again, players said they enjoyed it greatly. My experience over many cons is that only about half of tickets taken actually show up. I wish people wouldn't just ditch the game. At least give the ticket back to the event desk so someone else could get in! |
billclo | 13 Nov 2018 1:05 p.m. PST |
I ran two introductory events, each up to 4 players. First one was 2 players, second was 3. All were ticket holders. I later ran a free for all event, could take up to 6 players. EVERY player had a ticket, which is unheard of. Normally at least half the ticket holders don't show up and I mainly rely on walkups. |
historygamer | 13 Nov 2018 1:19 p.m. PST |
I'm sure more will chime in, but there has to be a better way to do this. |
pvi99th | 13 Nov 2018 1:33 p.m. PST |
I played in the Raid on U-201 game on Friday afternoon. I believe that all four of us had tickets (I know I had pre-registered online). It was one of the games moved to the Vistas Windows room from The Distelfink. We all agreed that the acoustics were a lot better upstairs than in the ballroom. I ran a game on Saturday morning for six players. All six showed up (with tickets) and I had two more people that played. Made it tough to control things; but they seemed to have fun. I was hoping to have one or two players and was a bit overwhelmed with eight. So far, I have only ever had one time that I had one player. I scaled down the game and played him myself. He was willing to do that, so why not. |
Xintao | 13 Nov 2018 6:32 p.m. PST |
At Origins, you pay for the games so you have some skin in the game. |
Grumble87106 | 13 Nov 2018 6:36 p.m. PST |
I had 2/7 people in my Friday afternoon game. One got a ticket onsite and the other I had told before the con that they were in automatically, so they didn't get a ticket. And that was it. We played a scaled-down scenario because one person had never played the rules before and wanted to learn how they work. My Saturday afternoon game listed for 7 and had 8 participants. I don't know who pre-registered and who was walkups, but they all seemed to be having fun. Kudos to the PEL winners. I have to say from past experience (not this time) that it's really a kick to be running a game and suddenly have the judges appear and make their speech. Cool! I did not play any games or go to any hobby university events. When not setting up or running games, the rest of my time -- noon Thursday to 2:00 on Sunday -- was spent volunteering at the Events desk or setting up and tearing down. (Well, I did go to the Dealers' area twice to pick up some goodies and also sold in the Sunday flea market.) Warms my heart to hear the testimonials that say we did a good job with Events. |
TodCreasey | 14 Nov 2018 5:00 a.m. PST |
I ran one Friday morning 1 ticket 1 walk-on for a 6 player game. I suspect it was the game not the con though that was my attendance problem as many other games around me did very well so I will do something different next time. Really liked the Vista windows so no complaints there and everyone seemed to figure it out. Tournament area was very well run and we had a great Fire and Sword tournament so shout out to everyone who was involved in the con. |
corzin | 14 Nov 2018 5:09 a.m. PST |
my game 2 people showed up, not sure on their reg status. but someone else was running the same system somewhere else games i played 1)friend was running a game…1 person pre regged and showed up, i sat in so he could play 2)went up to see a friend…his game was way short maybe even no other players so the GMs gang was playing so i sat in to play 3)all tickets sold and extra people were let in. as a side note i was not happy that someone intentionally broke the scenario by attacking his own team. |
95th Division | 14 Nov 2018 5:17 a.m. PST |
I ran a game Saturday morning at 9.00. 4 preregistered for a 4 person game. All were present. |
Rotundo | 14 Nov 2018 7:17 a.m. PST |
I had my son's D&D game fri 11-3. Full. Tickets and extras. My Salerno game was Sat 11-3. Four tickets no players. I also was moved and against the Flea market and dealer hall. A couple of guys in this thread helped out. My other son had a 10-2am zombies game that was well attended. Forgot to look st tix because we were tired. Three games, different themes, ticket system=pointless. I spoke to a BOD offical over a beer during Saturday night's game. He suggested a very minor fine to be awarded to Toys for Tots. I think no tickets is the way to go. |
historygamer | 14 Nov 2018 7:37 a.m. PST |
Why not give GMs the option to participate, or not, in the ticket system? If you want to, great. If you don't, then just take walk-ups or set out a sign up sheet and use that as a first come-first serve system. The event board could simply put a "see Game Master" ticket on the board to inform those inquiring about that particular game. The downside to the ticket system is: 1. It doesn't guarantee a player gets in a game anyway if the game doesn't show up 2. If all the tickets are taken, it discourages potential players from checking with the game to see if they can get in anyway 3. Many ticket holders never show up, hurting both the game and wasting staff time, resources, etc. |
CoffeeCooler | 14 Nov 2018 7:54 a.m. PST |
I think the entire GM/Game/Ticket Player process should under go a revision. I've worked the Events desk at Fall In for the past 10 years or so. I can see positives and negatives in the current process. I can tell you there seems to be no rhythm or reason to which games sell out and ones that don't. I and others working the Events desk always tell folks to still go over to see the GM. The number of no shows makes it a very good chance a player can still get in the game. I see the a few issues that I believe could be resolved with a few minor adjustments. |
Bowman | 14 Nov 2018 8:30 a.m. PST |
It's not the ticket system, per se. It's the general disrespect and thoughtlessness that we show for each other. If the people can't be considerate of their peers and fellow hobbyists, then some sort of punitive measure is an option. Paying for each event is one way. On the other hand, it may be beneficial to have a system in place to know who the no-shows are. I bet they are chronic abusers of the system. I'll also bet that the no-showers are those that have never run a game or tournament themselves and have no idea of the effort that goes into these activities. If we drop the ticket system entirely, will this make all the games "walk up" games? Or is there a mass sign in an hour before the starting time of each slot. I've been to conventions that have systems based on variations of those above. I'll say that they are also not without problems. |
historygamer | 14 Nov 2018 8:43 a.m. PST |
I don't see going to punitive measures, at least for the no-show gamers. There are a variety of reasons they may not be showing up. I also don't see going to a pay per game unless HMGS completely redoes its registration process. More labor intensive, not sure it is worth the effort. Why not just let the GMs decide whether to go with the current ticket system or go with walk-ups? Some seem to have success with the ticket system, others not so much. Years ago, when we had an option. I used to run all my games as walk up registration. I never had a shortage of players. Now, under the current system, my experience is maybe a get half of the ticket holders. My proposal would not require any more work either – in fact, less. It's also not be punitive. I also know that HMGS has finally been compiling information on games too. I'd love to hear what the results are so far. Good job, HMGS! |
Rotundo | 14 Nov 2018 9:00 a.m. PST |
HG. I am leaning your way. A punative approach to a fun weekend will drive away attendance. No ticket, full walkup would give a "Bazaar" feel to the offerings. Still might be carrying 500lbs worth of gear up stairs for nothing, but anyone could readily play in any game. Some one will complain of elitism if we allow GMs to pick and choose players. Everything has its good and its bad. |
historygamer | 14 Nov 2018 9:19 a.m. PST |
So just instruct GMs to put out a sign up sheet (or HMGS can give them one) on the table during set up. The GM simply calls the names in order they appear on the sheet. HMGS can collect the sheets if it likes to help give it some metrics. There should be no penalty to the GM if few or none sign up for the game, as long as the game is set up and ready to go. Let the market correct for games the paying attendees aren't interested in playing. I doubt the GM would offer that game twice. Again, this would be voluntary on the GMs' part when they register for their game – participate in the normal ticket system, or don't. No additional work for anyone. |
Bowman | 14 Nov 2018 12:56 p.m. PST |
What you both describe is still punitive, but this time to the conscientious wargamer instead of the person who is a non-shower. I like being able to book my games, by perusing the PEL and picking those that are most interesting. I also make sure what time I have available to run my game. I also can then plan for a course at hobby U. This can all be done way in advance when the PEL comes out. And now I'm being penalized. Like I said, outside of the HMGS conventions, Hotlead and Little Wars are the biggest conventions that use sheets for game sign up. There are still problems and frustrations with this system. |
historygamer | 14 Nov 2018 1:07 p.m. PST |
I fail to see how my suggestion is any form of punishment. 1. Just because a game is in the PEL does not mean it shows up. 2. If you register for a game before the con, and it doesn't show up, you've wasted your time and the one (or is it two now?) choice you get per day. 3. A GM choosing to opt out of the pre-reg system could list their email address so people could contact them directly. The GM could keep a pre-con sheet of names. They could also notify people ahead of time if they have to cancel. Now there's a concept. :-) I'd also point out that I often have people stop by while I am setting up and ask if there is room in my game. I always say I don't know how many tickets were taken, or how many will show up. I encourage them to come back, but a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and they seldom come back. No system is perfect, but the present one has a "lot" of problems and actively discourages people from trying to get into games that show as full – but may not be. What the various staff people do on their own is not policy and it is likely hit or miss. Your previous suggestion was for people to pay for games, which isn't going to happen at HMGS cons in the foreseeable future. You seem quick to shoot down my suggestion, but other than charging people, offer none of your own. I'd also like to know if you consistently run games at HMGS cons, just play, etc. It gives context to your thoughts and ideas. I've been running games at HMGS cons since the 1990s, both in book and pick-up. I've seen the system change over the years, but not necessarily for the better. The question is – what is the program trying to achieve, and it is achieving that? My take is that it is a mixed bag at best. I look forward to hearing your suggestions. |
dapeters | 14 Nov 2018 2:23 p.m. PST |
I have always preregistered for the cons. I look at the PEL and make a schedule of the games or activities I would like to get into. Usually there are several at any one time. I pick the game I want to play most and put it on the pre-registration. When I get there I will first try to get tickets to the other games. If it's game or activity, I really, really want to get into and there are no more tickets to be had then I just go before the game starts and ask the GM. I would not like to see the prereg and tickets disappear. And as far as the game being cancelled, that not a reason to get rid of the system. |
pvi99th | 14 Nov 2018 2:41 p.m. PST |
I don't mind the current system at all. I think making everything totally a walk up would make things really insane. Would we have people sleeping in the hallway trying to get a spot in a game? How early would you have to show up to be on the list? Someone would push it to the extreme at some point. If things had to change, I would just make pre-registration online the only way to guarantee getting into a game. If HMGS could gather the information of the registrants and notify the GM of how many players there are, that would be a big help to know if there were spots or not. At the convention everything is walk up with a required sign up sheet that gets turned into HMGS. You have to be present at start time to get a spot or it goes to the next person on the list. It allows popular games to be registered for ahead of time, allow alternative games for people who may just come last minute, and encourages pre-registration. This could help reduce lines of people needing badges. |
Rotundo | 14 Nov 2018 3:31 p.m. PST |
Pvi99th. I like that. No punative measure except gossip. If a guy stiffed me I could warn HG and Bowman when he signs for thier games. Also I personally think a few folks are signing up for 4 or 5 games in the same time slot to mitigate a no show GM, or to have a choice of period. Whatever thier reason. HMGS could then remind them they are already signed into a game. Or lock out those of us who take the buffet approach. |
Jlundberg | 14 Nov 2018 3:41 p.m. PST |
I gmed 4 games. I don't really care about prereg status – other than they get priority. I did not turn anyone away and had enough players for my games. The one game I prereged to play in was a no show by the gm. I did have a glitch. I had requested to stay on the same table throughout, but ended up on one table, having to move to another, then having to move again |
TSD101 | 14 Nov 2018 4:13 p.m. PST |
1/6 players showed up at my 6 PM Friday Camden game. Without Corzin I may have had to cancel. As both a GM and a player, I don't even sign up for games anymore, as I have absolutely no problem walking around and being invited to play something by other GMs. I meet lots of people that way too. This will cause grumblings, but maybe we need to take a hard look at limiting the number of events. If we have an average of 300 games with only 1500 attendees, lots of games will go unfilled. Also, a good 80% of games start at either 10 AM, 2 PM, or 7 PM. Its easy to see why. Go for a 10-2 game, immediately hop into a 2 PM game, grab something to eat at 6, then head to your 7 PM game. This causes a major glut, so perhaps there should be some incentive for holding games at other times? |
oldnorthstate | 14 Nov 2018 6:47 p.m. PST |
I ran two Pike and Shot Eastern Renaissance games in the Marietta Room. As others have pointed out, if you get half the people show up with tickets that is about average. Both my games had 6 slots. I had 4 players with tickets show up for each game, so I was ahead of the average. I agree with History Gamer that the ticket system is broken and walk up registration is best alternative…I actually ran my games about two years ago at Historicon and Fall In trying a walk up system. I included in my game description that there was no preregistration, everything was walk up. The problem was, despite me going to the GM desk and reminding them to remove the tickets and put a sign on the hook referring to walk up registration, that did not happen and several people walked up with tickets just as the game was scheduled to go and I already had my slots filled with walk up registrations. I was able to accommodate everyone but gave up trying to do it myself. |
Bowman | 14 Nov 2018 7:51 p.m. PST |
Your previous suggestion was for people to pay for games I did nothing of the sort. You could do with a reread. You seem quick to shoot down my suggestion, but other than charging people, offer none of your own. Again, where did I shoot down anything? I thought that I wrote that I liked the preregistration of games. I'd also like to know if you consistently run games at HMGS cons, just play, etc. It gives context to your thoughts and ideas. I've been running games at HMGS cons since the 1990s, both in book and pick-up……… Jeezus. |
ARMY Strong | 15 Nov 2018 6:26 a.m. PST |
Many good ideas here, but walking around the gaming areas after the dealer hall closed it seems there were a lot of empty tables unlike past conventions. With the space smaller due to the construction tables were still empty. We tried to too get in a walk up game but nothing available. Just my insight many smart people here so not sure what the fix is. |
historygamer | 15 Nov 2018 7:50 a.m. PST |
Bowman: I am not putting words in your mouth. You said: "Paying for each event is one way." Prior to that statement you were talking about the lack of respect from gamers not showing up. If you meant something else then you need to clarify. Then you said: "What you both describe is still punitive, but this time to the conscientious wargamer instead of the person who is a non-shower….. And now I'm being penalized." If that was not shooting down my suggestion (with a lack of any of your own, other than stay with a broken system), then again, please clarify. Then you said: "I liked the preregistration of games" Who is advocating not pre-registering games? Certainly not me. I was suggesting that the current system of pre-reg for players is a mixed bag of success at best, at worst broken and a waste of time and resources for all. That said, I'm advocated giving GMs the option to either opt into the ticket system or simply do their own sign up at the table process. As you pointed out in your previous post, any system will have its problems, but as a GM I'd rather do the sign up sheet. Opinions may vary, but that's the beauty of letting the GMs decide what they want to do. I asked for context of your experience, either as a GM or a player. Since the topic was GMs and who shows up (or doesn't) with tickets, I am trying to understand if you put on games or not. Given your response, I take it you don't. That's fine, games need players. But, if you did, you might better understand the problem of no-shows from a GM perspective. I would suggest you re-read your own posts and tell me how I misinterpreted your responses. |
historygamer | 15 Nov 2018 7:53 a.m. PST |
ARMY Strong: You said: "…but walking around the gaming areas after the dealer hall closed it seems there were a lot of empty tables unlike past conventions." I've yet to be at an HMGS con the past many years where there weren't lots of empty tables. A quick look at the list of canceled games at the Events desk might answer part of that. |
CoffeeCooler | 15 Nov 2018 9:50 a.m. PST |
Just a question for thought….I wonder if the number of canceled games equal or plus or minus the number of games where the GM had zero players. Just a thought. |
Bowman | 15 Nov 2018 11:41 a.m. PST |
Bowman:I am not putting words in your mouth. You said: "Paying for each event is one way." Nice quote mining. The full context was, "It's not the ticket system, per se. It's the general disrespect and thoughtlessness that we show for each other. If the people can't be considerate of their peers and fellow hobbyists, then some sort of punitive measure is an option. Paying for each event is one way. On the other hand, it may be beneficial to have a system in place to know who the no-shows are." Read that again, and you can see that it does not mean, "Your previous suggestion was for people to pay for games….." I can't help you if you can't see that. HG, you have a knack for destroying productive useful discussions….like this one. I've lost any interest in engaging with you about this any further. |
historygamer | 15 Nov 2018 12:47 p.m. PST |
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historygamer | 15 Nov 2018 1:02 p.m. PST |
And just to follow up on your response…. "If the people can't be considerate of their peers and fellow hobbyists, then some sort of punitive measure is an option." Forgive me if I don't get on board with a punitive option for people who don't show up for games. I'd rather go with a positive program and encourage people to show up early and sign up on the spot. That shows a GM they are interested, there, and ready to go. Most GMs take a while to set up, so people could come around during that time and sign up. "Paying for each event is one way." I don't think HMGS will ever go to such a system, nor would I want to see that. "On the other hand, it may be beneficial to have a system in place to know who the no-shows are." So I am guessing you weren't around when they did. It used to be that the GM went to the events desk and got a sheet with names of the players who signed up for the game. When HMGS moved away from that system and went to the current ticket system things seemed to have changed. There is some thought that no-shows increased dramatically. Before that, GMs also had the option to just allow sign-ups at the table. I'd suggest offering that option again – and it would just that, an option. No response necessary. |