Tango01 | 17 Sep 2018 9:44 p.m. PST |
Old but still interesting… "HANOI, VIETNAM—Forty years ago, on April 30, 1975, Nguyen Dang Phat experienced the happiest day of his life. That morning, as communist troops swept into the South Vietnamese capital of Saigon and forced the U.S.-backed government to surrender, the North Vietnamese Army soldier marked the end of the war along with a crowd of people in Hanoi. The city was about to become the capital of a unified Vietnam. "All the roads were flooded by people holding flags," Nguyen, now 65, told me recently. "There were no bombs or airplane sounds or screaming. The happy moment was indescribable."…" Main page link Amicalement Armand |
ochoin | 17 Sep 2018 10:06 p.m. PST |
Interesting article. It's well worth your time to stop off in Vietnam for a week or two, as we did on our way to Japan (to ski), two years ago. It's a remarkable country & the locals have preserved & commemorated the war everywhere. Underneath the anguish that still exists, there's a pride in defeating a super power for their freedom. |
3AcresAndATau | 17 Sep 2018 10:53 p.m. PST |
Definitely an interesting article. As always though, this sort of piece leaves a bad taste in my mouth. What the VC did to ours, the stories from mothers of friends and speakers and acquaintances who escaped, the continuing retribution against religious converts and suppression of speech, to my way of thinking the "agrarian revolutionaries" line is only slightly less insulting here than it is when discussing Mao Zedong. And I can't say that getting lucky on a political scandal keeping the US from keeping its promises to replace equipment 1:1 after the North Vietnamese were forced into peace on VV Day really counts as "winning the war". In the end, regardless of how one views Vietnam, the most poignant section of the article is the final one. No matter where in the world you go people forget sacrifice far too easily. |
Thresher01 | 17 Sep 2018 11:23 p.m. PST |
Presumably, he was one of the survivors of the mass killings afterwards by the communists, who reportedly butchered 2.5 million of their own countrymen. |
Garryowen | 18 Sep 2018 5:59 a.m. PST |
"there's a pride in defeating a super power for their freedom" I think there are millions who did not consider it "freedom". Thousands and thousands fled that "freedom" in what I have read was the largest exodus in human history. Tom |
Legion 4 | 18 Sep 2018 7:39 a.m. PST |
Thresher01 & Garryowen +1 Very, very good points …
No matter where in the world you go people forget sacrifice far too easily. So very, very true as well ! |
Virginia Tory | 18 Sep 2018 9:03 a.m. PST |
They ended up fighting for a repressive dictatorship, but it was a Vietnamese one. Not sure that's a "win." |
Pan Marek | 18 Sep 2018 10:02 a.m. PST |
….as if the rotating dictators in Saigon were much better. |
Tango01 | 18 Sep 2018 11:07 a.m. PST |
Glad you enjoyed it boys!. (smile) Amicalement Armand
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ochoin | 18 Sep 2018 12:03 p.m. PST |
who reportedly butchered 2.5 million of their own countrymen I don't know who reported that number but they deserve to have their journalists' license revoked. The human costs of the long conflict were harsh for all involved. Vietnam released its official estimate of war dead: as many as 2 million civilians on both sides and some 1.1 million North Vietnamese and Viet Cong fighters. The U.S. military has estimated that between 200,000 and 250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers died in the war & about 60, 000 of its own troops.
Certainly there was some payback by the communists after their victory. And the second, and much larger, wave of Vietnamese refugees were economic not political refugees. Post war, times were hard because of the devastation wrought, not least by the US bombing campaign. And if you've been to Vietnam any time in the last few years, it was a "win" against the US and its allies and its people will tell you. |
Thresher01 | 18 Sep 2018 1:14 p.m. PST |
2.5 Million is the estimate of the number killed, after the war was "won" by the North Vietnamese, ochoin. AND, apparently that is a low number, since 7.5 MILLION are mentioned here: link "April 30th, 2005 marks the 30th anniversary of the fall of Saigon. Three decades in which the Vietnamese communist government and proxies killed 7.5 million people". "After the Communist Party finished imparting their brutal oppression on the people of Vietnam, and with the west willfully silent, they moved onto Cambodia and Laos, killing 1.5 million people. They then focused their weapons and chains solely on Cambodia, bringing to power the perpetrators of the worst democide the world has ever seen, where 2-3 million Cambodians were murdered". "The figures I cite for death tolls are moderate estimates and based on the investigations done by Rudolph J Rummel, a retired political science professor from the University of Hawaii who has authored 24 books and was a runner up for a Nobel Peace prize. Mr. Rummel's book "Power Kills" is one of the most cited books in history". |
ochoin | 18 Sep 2018 11:39 p.m. PST |
Sorry but that source is worthless. Apart from obviously politically motivated sources, nearly all estimates are a fraction of that. Rummell is dubious to say the least.Read: Tomislav Dulić' journal article: Tito's Slaughterhouse: A Critical Analysis of Rummel's Work on Democide |
7dot62mm | 18 Sep 2018 11:53 p.m. PST |
The Communists killed off most people who were educated and/or thought differently than the author so it is hardly surprising that those who are left think the war went great for them. One can compare Vietnam and South Korea. In one the Communist won, in the other they didn't. Which one would you rather live in? |
ochoin | 19 Sep 2018 2:33 a.m. PST |
The Communists killed off most people who were educated You're thinking of Cambodia. |
Garryowen | 19 Sep 2018 5:11 a.m. PST |
Communists do have their apologists!. Tom |
ochoin | 19 Sep 2018 5:58 a.m. PST |
Communists do have their apologists!. As do fascist/Nazis have their apologists. Personally, I have no truck with either type of extremist as I'm sure everyone here doesn't. I know the bitter and undeniable truth that the US lost the Vietnam War is unpalatable to some but the truth is the truth. Name calling is a bit childish. |
Col Durnford | 19 Sep 2018 6:00 a.m. PST |
Arguing with communist apologist, nazi fan boys, and Jar Jar Binks lovers is a pointless exercise. |
Legion 4 | 19 Sep 2018 10:07 a.m. PST |
Jar Jar Binks ?!?!?!?!? undeniable truth that the US lost the Vietnam War Not on the battlefield … |
Durrati | 19 Sep 2018 4:07 p.m. PST |
Arguing with anyone with a fixed point of view who is not willing to examine it is pointless. Some of the knowledge of the history of the region demonstrated in this thread is poor to say the least. The implication that the Vietnamese communists brought to power the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia I find surprising in its basic lack of knowledge to say the least. To be clear – it was the Vietnamese Government that removed the Khmer from power and stopped their crimes. The US government however preferred to continue to recognise the Khmer Rouge as a legitimate government. So yes, the Vietnamese Government I am sure carried out horrendous acts. However, I think it is also fair to say the U.S. government also carries some responsibility for the 'bad stuff' that happened in S.E. Asia in the era of 60s – 80s |