"about intellectual property protection" Topic

In the past 6 months, I have experienced the worst thing in my wargame life:
As we all know, the problem of piracy is very serious in China. However, the behavior of a pirated retailer has become intolerable to me. The pictures below are showing the various pirated products it sells. To my surprise, I found many famous brands here:

MDF from 4Ground and Miniature Scenery
Mats from Wargame Print
Paper buildings from Dave Graffam Models
and some 3D pirnts from some brands, I'm not sure about the names.

Basically, what he did is, buy an origin MDF, scan its kits, and re-cut, resell. Or buy a non-commercial product, produce a lot and resell. Most damningly, TaoBao, Alibaba's retail platform, can do nothing about it.

I have contacted several brands to tell them their products are being pirated in China. They immediately provided a warning letters. But TaoBao said it still could not be proved that the seller was selling pirated products. Taobao needed evidence that either A) the seller admitted he was selling pirated products, or B) the products had intellectual property records in China. So forget option A. About the intellectual property records, seems none of these brands has done so abroad, let alone in China.

So now things are very difficult. These pirates can reproduce, recast and resell with impunity. China is a small market and will not do much harmness to these brands. But I fear that one day these pirated products will be exported to the world. I don't know how you protect intellectual property abroad, after all wargame hobby is a small business (compared to most traditional industries). I think the situation here is really bad, especially when I decided to start making original models, and piracy is a huge stain on Chinese brands.

You would think they would be a lot cheaper…

So. Don't buy from China, unless you are a cheap SOB with no feelings for your fellow gamers who aren't making a fortune selling originals.

Luke 10:7
A worker is worthy of his wages.
But a thief and pirate isn't.

@Winston Smith-

Words to live by sir!

Duck

@Winston:
Yes, that's what I'm worried about. Players' awareness of Chinese brands is getting worse. It has a big impact on me, too. I really don't want people to think 'are their products just copies' when they know that Mini Warfare is a Chinese company

Its the fault of the buyer, Who knows it bootleg but buy it anyway cause its cheaper. UNtil the Rest of the World get together and convinces China/Russia to clean up its act on Copy right infringement. Stop buying their crap.

@Wackmole9:
Yes, indeed, they are cheaper. But the quality is a disaster.
Unpainted plywood and badly deformed. Sometimes they even cut with the wrong board (2mm kits cut in 3mm board, you can't even build it). I bought some just to see what kind of things are they, and then I burned them all.

I suspect a lot of people don't know they are bootlegged copies.

It is the fault of the seller, not the buyer, and the unscrupulous Chinese government which permits this sort of stuff, AND, in many cases, actually participates in, and encourages it – theft of high-tech, intellectual property, up to and including military weapons systems.

Our current leader is trying to deal with this, but is getting a lot of pushback from other politicians on the take from the Chinese too.

The best defense is to boycott Chinese products, but that can be difficult to do, in some cases.

we have had some of our models pirated in china, even ebay don't seem to concerned, they told me they could not find the models that were pirated even though i provided page details ect.
waste of time, mind you he was selling them dearer than we do?

I have heard that Chinese law is not indifferent to copyright completely, but that it recognises copyright in property only if it has been established in China, hence the problem with items from outside. This would appear to be reflected in Frank's point (B).
Does this potentially mean there might be a way of pre-emptively establishing copyright in China by some method, to make it enforceable against this sort of copying? (Possibly moot if enforcement is ineffective, or the cost would be prohibitive.)

@clibinarium:
Even if you have Chinese IP record, sellers have 100 ways to get around them. More important is the strength of the company.
GW has branch company in China, although GW has not eradicated bootlegs, it is under control.

"It's China(town)."

What do you expect? Sorry, but that government is corrupt to its core and, like all socialist states, answerable only to itself, not the people. There is ZERO incentive for those in power to do anything about copyright infringement, and quite honestly, as a socialist state, ZERO belief on their part that copyright actually exists (rather like their utter lack of belief in any fundamental human right), law or no law. This situation will change only with significant economic pressure of such a nature as to threaten the power and comfort of those at who head the government. The one advantage the world has is that the internal Chinese market for luxury goods is a joke; the only market for such goods is the free, capitalist world, and the sole source of their GDP is sales to free, capitalist markets. Shut them out, and they collapse. And they know this. (Wish some other leaders in the rest of the world realized it!)

As an individual, artists (including game companies) have no recourse against the Chinese state, except not to do business with ANYONE in China. Otherwise, yes, your IP WILL be stolen. Not if, not may, but WILL. In the meantime, you can (and should) contact your elected representatives about the issue. People who need VOTES to remain in power tend to listen at least a little bit to people who DO vote…though sometimes it does seem otherwise…

Ditto Parzival!

Parzival, you make these assumptions based on a system that any decent socialist considers just as corrupt as the state that you criticise.

China is a Communist country, which is only one form of Socialism, there are many others where the rights of individuals are actually more valued and protected in law than in the USA. Don't lump all socialists together, they differ a great deal in their philosophy.

The problem in China is that rampant consumerism (which you laughingly call a 'free' market) is running wild within a framework of regulation that has few laws that regulate a system that doesn't fit the communist ideology.

The internal market in China is ramping up demand and it is using capitalist systems for its own ends – they didn't invent it but they are using the systems for their own good, just like all the other capitalists playing the same game.

They may differ in philosphy, but the results are always the same. Venezuela is the poster child for socialism.

I'm talking about bootleg wargame stuffs, what are you talking about?

Amusingly, the company my brother for manufactures palletizers.

Frankly when they sell a system to a Japanese company it is a one off. To date with Chinese customers they still do repeat business.

Of course palletizers are a bit more complex than MDF model kits.

I suppose the hobby items might generally be of inferior quality, but a lot of Chinese manufacture is quite comparable in quality to Western manufacture. My MAK-90 and 1911 are good solid pieces of workmanship and materials.

Certainly not a justification for violating IP rights, but it is definitely a mistake to presume that Chinese goods are all inferior.

China also has about 95 percent of the World's reserves of rare earth elements which might be a factor when governments are looking at sanctions – much of the high tech world is dependent on them.

Back to wargaming, asking a government to jeopardize other trade for a minor segment of the economy is unrealistic. Of course other industries – software and digital media lose far more and to my knowledge have yet to solve the problem.

Poor China and their inability to regulate all that "rampant consumerism." Fortunately, they've found a way to lick that! : link

"Consumerism" has got to be the most ridiculous false pejorative ever conceived.
Q: What do you call a person who consumes nothing?
A: Dead.
Q: What do you call a society that has no consumers?
A: Extinct.
Q: What do you call an economy without consumers?
A: Impossible.

So, in reality, "rampant consumerism" is actually nothing more than perfectly normal economic activity— people buying goods and services. Sometimes those goods and services are necessities, but often (and in the aspirations of anyone other than a religious hermit) they are quite simply "wants." Or, in another term, "luxury items."
In fact, this entire website (and indeed the entire hobby) is dedicated to the discussion, use, and expansion of luxury items. Humorous claims aside, NOTHING we purchase, make, use or discuss is in any way shape or form a "need." Thus, we are all engaging in "consumerism," and, if we have a vibrant and successful economy of wargaming, that consumerism could be labeled as "rampant." I rather doubt we need to be "regulated" by a government entity, whether it claims to be beneficial, benign or malevolent. Our consumerism is not, in and of itself, a problem, and nor is "consumerism" as a whole— which, in fact, is quite simply entirely replaceable with the term "demand." That's what consumerism is: demand for goods and services.
All the pejorative forms of it are actually not a recognition of what it really is, but a moral judgement of the consumers and the goods and services they choose to consume. It simply the same as saying, "I don't like what you want, therefore I am going to look down on you for wanting it and for wanting it in the amount that you do."
Now, Gildas doesn't mean that. What he means is that China has issues with pollution and other ills, which are indeed byproducts of producing certain goods and services, which he suggests are based in the government's legal inability to regulate the pollution causing economic activity (largely industrial in nature). This claim is on its face, ridiculous. China is a totalitarian state. The government can "regulate" anything it wants at any time it wants. And, as my link above shows, they are increasing that ability.
The Chinese government doesn't want to regulate the pollution causing activity (or in the case of the OP's point, honor foreign copyrights) because it benefits those in power not to do so. And, as a totalitarian state, the people negatively affected by such activity, have NO recourse to alter that state.
And yes, China is a socialist state. All communist states are simply a form of a socialism. And the rights "protected" by socialists states are very seldom actually rights, but rather "wants" the state places a burden on others to provide. Hint: if someone else *must* provide it to you, it's not a right. It may be a moral obligation upon them, but it's not a right.

Hint: if someone else *must* provide it to you, it's not a right. It may be a moral obligation upon them, but it's not a right.

When the State grants you a "right", it can just as easily take it away.
When the State proclaims that rights pre-exist outside of the framework of the state, that's marginally better.

They may differ in philosphy, but the results are always the same. Venezuela is the poster child for socialism.

I'm talking about bootleg wargame stuffs, what are you talking about?

Thus we see the futility of the OP trying to control "his" thread.

The purpose of this post is just to tell you that someone in China is producing these pirated products; Remind other players not to buy these pirated products if you find them being sold in your area; Know about what methods will other companies adopt to deal with piracy.

@Parzival
You raise such a simple matter to the height of the national social system. I really can't see how your attacks on socialist countries around the world can help fight against piracy. In fact, the way you describe a socialist country is almost identical to the way we described a capitalist country 60 YEARS AGO.

@Winston Smith @Thresher01
Do you think "boycott Chinese products" works? Check out your rulebooks and see how many are printed in China. Take a look at your miniatures and see how many are made in China. At least most of Ospery's books are printed in China, and many of the new games on KS are manufactured in China, Guild ball and GW's plastic models too.
More broadly, did you know that 90% of the world's straws are made in China? Are you going to stop using straws, or going to accept the price hike for McDonald's cola?

Parzival : Gildas didn't mean anything remotely like what you said so please stop putting words in my mouth.

Consumerism has a well established meaning that is a good deal more complex than what you describe.

Long may you continue in your fairyland of personal definitions, real life is a little more complex than that.

Who's "we?" Is there a crowd of 80-100 year olds in this discussion?

Also: consumerism: n. "The theory that an increasing consumption of goods is economically desireable" also "a preoccupation with and the inclination towards the buying of consumer goods."— Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition. Which is pretty much what I wrote.
"Rampant consumerism" is thus indeed a pejorative against (other) people buying goods and services to whatever arbitrary degree the critic perceives of as "excess."

I apologize, then Gildas. I would not put words in your mouth. I was in fact giving you what I saw as the benefit of the doubt— that the "consumerism" you decried among the citizenry of China was bad because of its indirect impact on their environment or economic condition (pollution, etc.). I will allow you to instead indicate what you were condemning and why it was bad, as the definition of it gives no actual indication at all. I have over many years heard consumerism condemn (by the left), but invariably those condemning it either came from a moralistic point of view ("people should not spend money on worthless things") or a socialist point of view ("that money should be used by the state, not to buy hot dogs") or a (somewhat more laudable) concern over pollution and resources ("all that waste is bad for the environment and ugly, too.") But those are all opinions placed upon the term, not the definition itself.

I will note that in any case, the fact that China now actually has "consumerism" at a level worthy of condemnation is a vast improvement over the China of 40 years ago, in which a good friend of mine was forced to work on a state farm "for the good of the people and the Party" at a wage of 1¢ a day, until he managed to escape and flee to the U.S.. I must say, at that wage I doubt he was much overcome with "consumerism."