""an unit" or "a unit"?" Topic

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PrivateSnafu	29 Aug 2018 12:14 p.m. PST
Ok, all you grammar pendants. Chime in. I'm working on my Star Wars Lego rules and keep getting to a place where I say "a unit". The conventional wisdom is use "an" preceding when the next word starts with a vowel. Some googling about suggests its more about the vowel sound not the actual vowel. What sounds correct to you? What is proper? State your location please. North America or otherwise.
Tango01	29 Aug 2018 12:14 p.m. PST
In 1/72 Main page link Amicalement Armand
robert piepenbrink	29 Aug 2018 12:24 p.m. PST
North American here, and always "a unit" because "unit" starts with a consonantal sound. I have a hazy recollection of a few words written as "an" and spoken as "a" for that reason, but I think it's always been "a unit" British or American English, written or spoken.
deadhead	29 Aug 2018 12:25 p.m. PST
English is funny. A unit. But what about in front of an H? (even then, is that an Aitch..English… or a Haitch…Irish.) It is "a house", but "an honorary title". Gets worse. Collective nouns and singular or plural verbs gets me. The regiment of soldiers is singular…a regiment of soldiers are plural… UK, Irish passport holder….
Winston Smith	29 Aug 2018 12:26 p.m. PST
"Unit" is pronounced "YOU-nit". Therefore "a" is sufficient. If it were pronounced "OO-nit" then "an" would be recommended. That's why I consider "an historical" to be nothing but smug pedantry. It comes from "dropping the Aitches".
Winston Smith	29 Aug 2018 12:27 p.m. PST
I disagree Deadhead. "Regiment" is a collective noun, not a plural noun.
Mollinary	29 Aug 2018 12:29 p.m. PST
Interesting question, but I think Robert may have it. Just thinking through my own limited vocabulary, where a word beginning with ‘u' is pronounced as ‘‘y' as in unit, unicorn, uniform, then I would expect an ‘a' to be used. Where it is not, as in undertaker, urchin, ullulation, then I would expect an ‘an' to be used! No knowledge, just a bit of empiricism.
Trajanus	29 Aug 2018 12:30 p.m. PST
Its "a unit". There a grammatical exceptions to the "vowel" rule and this is one of them. BTW: Nice to see Tango is still channelling the TMP Bug with uncanny accuracy!
79thPA	29 Aug 2018 12:49 p.m. PST
Like a unit of laser guided missiles …
Bashytubits	29 Aug 2018 1:06 p.m. PST
I think Tango is super glued to the bug. Oh, it's a unit.
Cerdic	29 Aug 2018 1:16 p.m. PST
I've just checked with the missus. She's an English teacher, went to Cambridge don't cha know! She agrees that it's "a unit". Location – London innit…
Herkybird	29 Aug 2018 1:24 p.m. PST
Definitely a unit…English is a mish mash of many languages and dialects, so don't expect too much uniformity!
Stryderg	29 Aug 2018 1:29 p.m. PST
It's "a unit", because grammar rules is more like suggestions than actual rules. Arrr Deep South, USA
Mollinary	29 Aug 2018 1:49 p.m. PST
Just to confuse matters further, as far as I recall (not so far, these days!) an ‘orange' was originally a ‘norange'.
John Armatys	29 Aug 2018 2:27 p.m. PST
"A unit" (in the UK). As another exception "An hotel".
PrivateSnafu	29 Aug 2018 2:29 p.m. PST
I'll try to make a uniform go at it, but if I make an uncouth mistake be sure to point it out.
miniMo	29 Aug 2018 3:33 p.m. PST
"An historical" may be pedantic, but does avoid the potential confusion of sounding like "a-historical"!
42flanker	29 Aug 2018 4:12 p.m. PST
The regiment of soldiers is singular…a regiment of soldiers are plural… Indeed "General Wishfort moved a grenadier regiment to the exposed flank. It was cut to pieces." "After six months hard campaigning, The Mudshire Fuzileers were sent down to the coast and encamped adjacent the malarial swamplands of Nogonogo. They were not happy."
Legion 4	29 Aug 2018 4:15 p.m. PST
I've always heard "a unit". It's a single entity. An Infantry Plt is a unit in an Infantry Co. No matter how many men, AFVs, etc. is in that unit. It's ID'd by it's organizational nomenclature/size, e.g. Bn, Rgt, Bde, etc.
Sergeant Paper	29 Aug 2018 4:35 p.m. PST
Here in my tiny island home (storm-wracked Kauai), it is "A Unit." Also a history, a historian, a hotel, and so on. No dropped aitches in 'awaii… And I rise in support of mollinary's assertion that, "…where a word beginning with ‘u' is pronounced as ‘‘y' as in unit, unicorn, uniform, then I would expect an ‘a' to be used. Where it is not, as in undertaker, urchin, ullulation, then I would expect an ‘an' to be used!"
ochoin	29 Aug 2018 9:03 p.m. PST
Usage: the great leveller. (ie don't look for "rules" in English) Example: A UNIVERSITY but AN UMBRELLA. Written in down-town Goonengarry (where the fellers chew tobaccy and the women wicky wacky, woo).
GreenLeader	29 Aug 2018 10:29 p.m. PST
My Grandmother would always say "an 'otel" – the 'h' was silent.
Martin Rapier	29 Aug 2018 11:31 p.m. PST
This is English we are talking about. There ain't no rules. A unit.
Fish	29 Aug 2018 11:43 p.m. PST
Great thread! Totally loved GreenLeader's nana story!
Patrick R	30 Aug 2018 1:37 a.m. PST
Depends on the unit : meters ? newton ? bytes ? drams ? becquerel ? Scoville ? dog years ?
Erzherzog Johann	30 Aug 2018 2:50 a.m. PST
As a teacher of ELL students (English Language Learners), we always taught that it was a sound rule, not a spelling rule. Of course there are no rules, only guidelines . . . Cheers, John
Lion in the Stars	30 Aug 2018 1:00 p.m. PST
Military writer here. "A unit"
saltflats1929	30 Aug 2018 6:49 p.m. PST
This is a ground ball. Let's try something harder. Are you "in" line or "on" line?
Erzherzog Johann	30 Aug 2018 8:20 p.m. PST
In, otherwise you'd be on 'the' line surely. Proof: In Everest, Josh Brollins' Beck Weathers character says ". . . waiting in line like I'm in freakin' Walmart" so it must be true. ;-) Cheers, John
ochoin	30 Aug 2018 11:20 p.m. PST
If you're British, you'd be forming an orderly & civilised queue.
deadhead	30 Aug 2018 11:53 p.m. PST
Ochoin…..love it. This thread is only getting better and nothing to do with this forum. Some great wit out there
Art	31 Aug 2018 6:29 a.m. PST
Abbott: How do you…how do you like my lawn club for St. Lou? Costello: Hey, all those people gonna be at the game today? Abbott: Certainly Costello: Ah, this is gonna be a whopper of a game! Abbott: Well it should be Costello: Hey, Abbott… Abbott: What? Costello: I understand they made you the manager of this here whole great team Abbott: Why not? Costello: So, you the manager? Abbott: I'm the manager! Costello: Well, you know, I'd like to know some of the guys' names on the team so when I meet 'em on the street or in the ballpark I'll be able to say, "Hello" to those people Abbott: Why sure I'll introduce you to the boys. They give 'em funny names though Costello: Oh I know they give those ball players awful funny names Abbott: Well, let's see, on the team we have uh Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third… Costello: Are you the manager? Abbott: Yes Costello: You know the guys' names? Abbott: I sure do Costello: Then tell me the guys' names Abbott: I say, Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third and then you… Costello: You the manager? Abbott: Yes Costello: You know the guys' names? Abbott: I'm telling you their names! Costello: Well who's on first? Abbott: Yeah Costello: Go ahead and tell me Abbott: Who Costello: The guy on first Abbott: Who Costello: The guy playin' first base Abbott: Who Costello: The guy on first Abbott: Who is on first! Costello: What are you askin' me for? I'm askin' you! Abbott: I'm not asking you, I'm telling you Costello: You ain't tellin' me nothin'. I'm askin' you, who's on first? Abbott: That's it! Costello: Well go ahead and tell me! Abbott: Who! Costello: The guy on first base Abbott: That's his name Costello: That's whose name? Abbott: Yes Costello: Well go ahead and tell me Abbott: That's the man's name! Costello: That's whose name? Abbott: Yeah! Costello: Well go ahead and tell me! Abbott: Who is on first Costello: What are you askin' me for? I'm askin' you, who's on first? Abbott: That's it Costello: Well go ahead and tell me Abbott: Who Costello: The guy on first Abbott: That's it Costello: What's the guy's name on first? Abbott: No, What's on second Costello: I'm not askin' you who's on second! Abbott: Who's on first Costello: That's what I'm askin' you! Who's on first? Abbott: Now wait a minute. Don't…don't change the players Costello: I'm not changin' nobody! I asked you a simple question. What's the guys' name on first base? Abbott: What's the guy's name on second base Costello: I'm not askin' you who's on second! Abbott: Who's on first Costello: I don't know Abbott: He's on third. Now we're not talking about him Costello: Look, you got a first baseman? Abbott: Yes Costello: Then tell me the fella's name playin' first Abbott: Who Costello: The guy playin' first Abbott: That's his name Costello: Wait…What's the guy's name on first base? Abbott: What is the guy's name on second base! Costello: Who's playin' second? Abbott: Who's playin' first Costello: I don't know Abbott: He's on third base Costello: Look, when you pay off the first baseman every month, who do you pay the money to? Abbott: Every dollar of it Costello: Yeah. Look, you gotta pay the money to somebody on first base, don't you? Abbott: Yeah Costello: Does he give you a receipt? Abbott: Sure Costello: How does he sign the receipt? Abbott: Who Costello: The guy that you give the money to Abbott: Who Costello: The guy you give the money to Abbott: That's how he signs it Costello: That's how who signs it? Abbott: Yes Costello: Well go ahead and tell me!? Abbott: That's it Costello: That's who? Abbott: Yeah Costello: When you give the guy the money, doesn't he have to sign the receipt? Abbott: He does! Costello: Well how does he sign his name? Abbott: Who Costello: The guy you give the money to Abbott: That's how he signs it! Costello: You! You…You just don't give money to someone without having 'em sign the receipt! Abbott: No! Who signs it Costello: What are you askin' me for? Abbott: Now calm down. I'm not asking you, I am telling you. The… Costello: Well go ahead and tell me. What's the guy's name that signs the receipt on first base? Abbott: Well now wait a minute. What signs his own receipt Costello: Who signs his own receipt? Abbott: No, Who signs his Costello: I'm askin' you, when the guy on first base gives you a piece of paper… Abbott: Yes, now wait… Costello: …he puts his name on it Abbott: No, Who puts his name on it… Costello: How… Abbott: …and what puts his name on it… Costello: How does the fella's name on first base look to you when he signs his name? Abbott: Who Costello: To you Abbott: That's how it does Costello: How does it look to you? Abbott: Who! Costello: To you Abbott: Who! Costello: To you Abbott: Who! Look… Costello: When the guy signs his name, how does it look to you? Abbott: Now that's how it looks. Who Costello: How…Who? Abbott: Who Costello: I'm askin' you. What's the guy's name on first base you give the money to? Abbott: Who! After all, the man's entitled to it… Costello: Who is? Abbott: Yes. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it Costello: Whose wife? Abbott: Yeah, sure Costello: All I'm tryin' to find out is what's the guy's name on first base… Abbott: What is on second base Costello: I'm not askin' you who's on second Abbott: Who's on first Costello: I don't know Abbott: He's… Costello: Third base, I know Abbott: Yeah Costello: You got a outfield? Abbott: Sure Costello: The left fielder's name? Abbott: Why Costello: I just thought I'd ask you Abbott: Well I just thought I'd tell you Costello: The left fielder's name? Abbott: Why!? Costello: Hmm…Because! Abbott: Oh, he's center field Costello: Oh… Abbott: Told you all these players got… Costello: All I'm tryin' to figure out is what's the guy's name in left field Abbott: Now, What's on second Costello: I'm not askin' you who's on second Abbott: Who's on first Costello: I don't know… Both: Third base Costello: You got a pitcher on this team? Abbott: Wouldn't be a fine team without a pitcher Costello: What's his name? Abbott: Tomorrow Costello: You don't want to tell me today? Abbott: I'm telling you Costello: Then go ahead Abbott: Tomorrow! Costello: What time? Abbott: What time what? Costello: What time tomorrow are you gonna tell me who's pitching? Abbott: Now listen. Who is not… Costello: I'll break your arm, you say who's on first! I want to know what's the pitcher's name? Abbott: What's on second Costello: I don't know Both: Third base! Costello: You got a catcher? Abbott: Sure ] Costello: The catcher's name? Abbott: Today Costello: Today. You don't wanna tell me, today…tomorrow…do you? Abbott: I'm telling you Costello: So the catcher's name? Abbott: Today Costello: Today. And Tomorrow's pitching Abbott: Now you've got it! Costello: Now I've got it… Abbott: Hey! Costello: All we got is a couple of days on the team! Abbott: Well I can't help that Costello: All right. You know now, I'm a good catcher. Now, I get behind the plate and…and Tomorrow's pitching on my team and a heavy hitter gets up Abbott: Yes? Costello: Now when he gets up, me being a good catcher, I'm gonna throw the guy out at first base. So the guy bunts the ball. I pick up the ball; I'm gonna throw the guy out at first base. So I pick up the ball and throw it to who? Abbott: Now that's the first thing you've said right Costello: I don't even know what I'm talkin' about! Abbott: Well that's…That's all you have… Costello: That's all I have to do is to throw the ball to first base. Now who's got it? Abbott: Naturally. Now you've got it Costello: I throw the ball to first base, somebody's gotta get the ball! Now who's got it? Abbott: Naturally Costello: Who? Abbott: Naturally Costello: Naturally? Abbott: Naturally Costello: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally Abbott: No, no, no, no… Costello: He gets the ball. Naturally gets the ball and… Abbott: You throw the ball to first base Costello: Then who gets it? Abbott: Naturally Costello: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally Abbott: No! Costello: Naturally gets the ball and…and… Abbott: You throw the ball to Who Costello: Naturally Abbott: Naturally Costello: That's what I'm saying!?Abbott: You're not saying it… Costello: I said, I throw the ball to Naturally Abbott: No you don't! Costello: I throw it to who? Abbott: Naturally Costello: That's what I'm saying! Abbott: No it isn't Costello: I throw the ball to first base, somebody's gotta get it Abbott: So Who gets it Costello: Naturally Abbott: That's it Costello: Okay. Now I ask you, who gets it? Abbott: Naturally Costello: Same as you! Abbott: Now listen… Costello: I throw the ball to Naturally Abbott: You throw the ball to Who! Costello: Then who gets it? Abbott: Naturally Costello: He better get it! So I throw the ball to first base Abbott: All right Costello: Whoever gets it drops the ball and the guy runs to second. Now, Who picks up the ball and throws it to What. What throws it to I Don't Know. I Don't Know throws it back to Tomorrow, triple play Abbott: Could be Costello: Another guy gets up and hits a long fly ball to Because Abbott: Yes Costello: Why? I don't know! He's on third and I don't give a darn! Abbott: What'd you say? Costello: I said, I don't give a darn! Abbott: Oh, that's our shortstop!
Legion 4	31 Aug 2018 8:24 a.m. PST

deadhead	31 Aug 2018 1:01 p.m. PST
You can see his point….. It don't mean nuthin'…..it don't mean nuthin'…. Charlie is through the wire, the Pig is jammed, Broken Arrow has been called………. It don't mean nuthin' Worst times in my life I have just repeated that mantra. The above don't mean nuthin' either…and really worthwhile
etotheipi	01 Sep 2018 5:28 a.m. PST
If you're British, you'd be forming an orderly & civilised queue. Wow … I didn't realize that over 90% of the population of London and Cambridge weren't British … ;)
deadhead	01 Sep 2018 12:30 p.m. PST
I did a response to this, which has disappeared into the ether. If it reappears, apologies for any duplication. My point was meant to be that " 90% of the population" is now a singular subject, not a plural. So it should be " 90% of the population wasn't" etc. But it does take a card carrying Irishman to speak/write the Queen's English
42flanker	02 Sep 2018 12:06 a.m. PST
"card-carrying"
Art	02 Sep 2018 3:08 a.m. PST
Why… "90% of the population wasn't"…"card-carrying" That's enough votes to make anyone a President or Prime Minister YouTube link
etotheipi	03 Sep 2018 4:55 a.m. PST
"90% of the population" is a singular subject. The hypothetical clause, however, calls for the subjunctive … "were" instead of "was". link OK, ladies and gentlemen – amo, amas, amat, …
4th Cuirassier	03 Sep 2018 5:01 a.m. PST
If I'm not mistaken, whether the h in a word is pronounced or not depends on whether it's of Latin or "Germanic" origin. You pronounce the h in 'hand' and 'house' because these are the German words 'Hand' and 'Haus'. You don't pronounce it in 'honour' or 'hour' because these are from Latin roots and eg the French don't pronounce the h at the start of 'honneur' or 'heure'. Interestingly you can infer quite a bit from modern pronunciation about what actual spoken Latin must have sounded like. The Romans probably didn't pronounce the initial h either because no Latinate language does. They may well have had the glottal stop. Consider the present tense of the Latin verb amare, "to love": amo – I love amas – you love amat – s/he loves amamus – we love amatis – you love amant – they love here's the modern Spanish equivalent: amo amas ama amamos amáis aman The Spanish is basically the Latin with the t removed. Pronounce the Latin with a glottal stop, i.e. so as to remove the t, and you have the modern Spanish verb essentially unaltered in over 2,000 years. Is that not extraordinary? Between that, the hard c and the soft v spoken Latin was probably quite guttural-sounding and perhaps nearer to modern Spanish or even German than to Italian.
deadhead	03 Sep 2018 5:03 a.m. PST
That is quite a fascinating link. So many excellent examples eg "God save the Queen" or "Thy Kingdom come". I will return to that for a second read
4th Cuirassier	03 Sep 2018 5:08 a.m. PST
I'd quibble with that oxford dictionaries link. There is a significant difference in meaning between "It is important that they be aware of the provisions of the Act" and "It is important that they are aware of the provisions of the Act". The former means "they need to be aware"; the latter means "it's relevant that they already are aware". My favourite phrase in the subjunctive is 'oderint dum metuant', which you just can't say as crisply or menacingly in English.
Lion in the Stars	03 Sep 2018 1:45 p.m. PST
I'd quibble with that oxford dictionaries link. There is a significant difference in meaning between "It is important that they be aware of the provisions of the Act" and "It is important that they are aware of the provisions of the Act". The former means "they need to be aware"; the latter means "it's relevant that they already are aware". That difference only applies in law, in the US.
Handlebarbleep	03 Sep 2018 2:07 p.m. PST
A and an are indeed aids to pronunciation and fluency rather than grammar. The name for the snake was nadder, the 'n' then migrated until it became 'an adder' The haitch "rule" is fascinating, but take herb. Pronounced in the French fashion in the US – 'erb. So correctly there "an herb". In the UK and most of the Commonwealth the 'h' is voiced, so "a herb" is corrrect.
Erzherzog Johann	04 Sep 2018 12:03 a.m. PST
In New Zealand the dropped 'h' has often been associated with a Catholic education. I don't know how true that is. Cheers, John
holdit	04 Sep 2018 4:39 a.m. PST
"The Regiment" is singular but the soldiers are plural so that it would be correct to say either… "The regiment is going to war" or "The soldiers of the regiment are going to war" It would be incorrect to say "The regiment are going to war", because only one regiment is being discussed. This lack of agreement between verb and noun is quite common in news broadcasts, I find e.g. "The government are discussing…"
etotheipi	04 Sep 2018 6:30 a.m. PST
In "The soldiers of the regiment are going to war", the subject is "soldiers", obviously plural, not "regiment", which is still singular, but part of the adjective phrase "of the regiment", so not the subject, with which the verb in the predicate must agree. Technically, in the above sentence, the commas (and punctuation in general) go inside the quotation marks, not outside. But from a semantic perspective, the comma belongs to the broader sentence, not the quoted material, so I do not follow this rule. Or, put another way, to the OED and CMS, I say, "Bite me!".
deadhead	04 Sep 2018 6:32 a.m. PST
Funny about the dropped H. In Ireland the reverse still applies and in Ulster, during the "Troubles", the legend was that sectarians would identify anyone questioned at a roadblock by asking them to recite the alphabet. Haitch meant Catholic schooling, Aitch meant Protestant. It paid to get it right. My Regiment example was bad one. But I still have this idea that the definite article is always singular for a collective noun, but the indefinite "a" can be plural…..now I must think of an example!
42flanker	04 Sep 2018 7:19 a.m. PST
It would be incorrect to say "The regiment are going to war", because only one regiment is being discussed And yet it is common usage to say "The 95th are on our left, covering the open flank"- although one would have to say "The 95th Regiment is coming up on our left. Ditto "The Mudshires are on our left/The Mudshire Regiment is coming up.."
holdit	04 Sep 2018 10:17 a.m. PST
I've never understood "an historical" because the "h" in "history" isn't dropped. Unless the speaker is a cockney. :-)