"Has an outraged person ever condemned a game you were in?" Topic

It has never happened to me. But I would ignore them.

Way back in the late seventies there was a Canadian Vietnam vet (it was that or prison he said) in the club who did not object but was visibly shaken by a Vietnam wargame that was being played at an event.

Canada was not in the Vietnam War.

About 30,000 Canadians volunteered to fight in Vietnam.

link

Yes, I was running a WW2 skirmish game at the open use room in the Albany library (Albany, California) and we were talking with people who wandered in to see all the dioramas and figures. One lady came in and asked what model train club we were with, oh no ma'am, we're with a local gaming club and these are table top miniatures games. See those guys are playing the battle of Lutzen, those guys are doing a WW2 air combat game and those guys are doing a WW2 skirmish game set at Stalingrad.

Well, by her reaction you'd have thought we said we were performing taxidermy on live critters. She was very angry and vocal about her desire for peace (an angry peace promoter?) and went and complained to the library that we were promoting violence and war. A librarian came out and questioned what we were doing, that they "had received complaints about disruptive and aggressive behavior," and such.

Nothing came of that, the library took no action, but angry peace lady organized people to protest the club to STOP THE WAR fer cryin' out loud, and made the library such an uncomfortable place to play that we stopped going there. Ok, it's part of the Berkeley culture, but really??

Our club was invaded by some angry women (about 3 years ago)-- complaining about our 'Gloryfying War', our secretary had some quiet words with them, and they left.

if dice are used,it encourages gambling

Not if you roll like I do!

To answer the original post, yes. I was running a SCW game, the Battle of Jarama at Salute, and a gentlemen took offence at the commie *******'s of the International Brigade.

I faced him with a stoney silence. It was a flippin wargame with both sides represented, he wasn't cheering on my Fascist Moors and Legion, just moaning about the IB.

@rallynow-- you might want to let the Canadians know; they accidently built a Vietnam Veterans memorial in Windsor, ON.

My Dad walk into see what the noise was about … and said " Well son you just shot my Bomber group down" and that was the last time we played that game.

My father was always a bit intrigued by my wargaming. He had been in US Army Tank Destroyers in WW2. He would occasionally offer comments on my various models as I built them (telling me how they were trained to approach using bazookas vs. StuGs with Schurzen, for example). But once I started collecting micro armor and doing wargames, his interest grew.

Not enough to ever join a game. But enough to ask about my games. He repeatedly expressed his interest in whether I was gaming actual historical battles (vs. made-up scenarios). Alas, at that tender age I had no idea how to gather information on actual unit compositions, or actual engagements. Most of my kit was Eastern Front, and bout the only information I could find on actual battles was Martin Caiden's "The Tigers are Burning".

He did, however, express his distaste at my having German units. He didn't mind me building a model of a StuG, but he did not want me playing as a German. Nope. Not in his house.

So I sold 'em to my gaming buddy / adversary.

I moved out on my own during the Carter administration, and my father passed away while George H.W. Bush was in office. He never got to see my correct-to-TOE-tables units of US TDs -- M3s, M10s, M18s (his favorite) or M36s.

And I still don't play Germans. Just wouldn't feel right.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

"They" could very well be the hotel or venue.
They don't want any grief or bad publicity.

Well, not quite the same thing, but …

Pacificon used to be held at the Dunfey Hotel south of San Francisco. It was a bit of a strange hotel, right next to a major freeway interchange, that was built to look like an old castle. Quite a memorable venue for a wargaming con.

I was there one year … thinking it was maybe the late 1980s or early 1990s, when the Hotel management got rather miffed at the con organizers.

Seems there was, as part of the con, a "demonstration" game by the south bay's RC Model Ships Combat club. They plunked a couple of their ships in the hotel swimming pool and had at with their pneumatic BB guns. Seems they broke a few hotel room windows…

Don't know if there was any cause-and-effect relationship, but it was soon thereafter that the con moved to another venue.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Private Matter, you are correct. I can only plead failing memory. The incident, however, DID happen.

Never had any drama from a political standpoint, but when I was a teenager, there was a lot of noise from various ultra-religious types in the area about the playing of RPGs being a gateway to Satanism or something.

Once upon a time I was sitting on my porch steps sanding the fuselages of some 1/144 scratchbuilt aircraft. The elderly lady across the street came out to get the mail and noticing me she came over and asked "are you actually whittling?" I said no, just building some WWII bombers for a friend. She threw up her arms and said "Oh I knew it was something violent… I just new it…" and half ran waving her arms and mumbling all the way back to her house. Came out again in a half hour or so to get the mail she forgot the first time.

No "outraged" person condemned my games. Why would they? I wonder what "outraged" would even mean. I bet it would define the answer. Curious, why is this blatantly political thread allowed here? Have the rules changed and nobody told me?

I think the examples of outrage are pretty clear. As to blatantly political, it is also very much related to gaming, and likely to occur again in the future with the current climate.

Its also been very polite, so I don't see the problem.

No.

Back in 1975 there was a push to shut down the Wargaming club at Uni. We were accused of being Nazi warmongers by the representatives of EngSoc (aka Student Labour Party).

Since the latest army we fielded was my Heraclian Byzantines, they eventually gave up their attempt to shut it down.

My reaction? I became a Tory after this incident.

Not personally encountered, however, I do have a small collection of "War is not a game/Don't by war toys" buttons. I love the irony of having them in the game room.

Yes. I was playing siege of Jerusalem 70 AD. Some of the Roman players were calling out 'Kill them Jews'. I got upset as my Wife's Mother was in the Death camps. I asked the Roman Players to refrain from shouting that term and they did and we finished playing.

Yep. We played Fire & Fury in the basement and I had a US flag and a Confederate flag hanging on the wall to set the atmosphere. My daughter and some of her friends went down there for a get together. Her friends raised holy hell over the Confederate flag. Justifying it to my daughter fell on deaf ears.

Long ago I bought a Ral Partha Balrog at the hobby store while on lunch hour. I afterwards left it sitting on the desk in the back office of the store, where our Portuguese seamstress happened to see it. She later asked me "Why you have devil?", and I had to explain it wasn't a devil, and was just for a game. I think she was afraid I was getting into devil worship and such.

In the 90's we had a local wargames club which we named the "Kingston Wargamer's Association" and one of the first things we did was set up a bank account. The first statement from the bank was addressed to the "Kingston Warmonger's Association"! A mistake, or was it intentional?

I am a lot more worried by other wargamers arguing for an hour about what month the T-34C was introduced or whether British Light infantry can charge in column or that such-and-such unit didnt wear a certain shade of blue or spending a lot of time telling me what every General ever had for breakfast.

If anyone goes to a wargames convention and starts complaining about wargames, they should be thrown out by security.

About 30,000 Canadians volunteered to fight in Vietnam.

Yes that is a little known fact … I wonder how many from US went to Canada to avoid going to Vietnam ?

No matter, the US got some very "good" men in exchange for some much, much less than that …

'No matter, the US got some very "good" men in exchange for some much, much less than that … ' but we paid you back by taking Justin Bieber.

Hi
Without doubt there will come a day in this era of ‘Virtuous Indignation' where it's fashionable, ‘hip' and ‘righteous' to get all bent out of shape about anything and everything that some SJW will complain that I have some 25mm Waffen SS troops (who will be indistinguishable in that scale from my Heer at 3 feet). When that happens I will simply suggest they find a ‘safe space' and go toast some marshmallows.
I doubt anyone will complain about Communist Troops in miniature however 🤔

As for veterans being ‘triggered' by a Miniatures game….
I was diagnosed with PTSD after my last deployment to Afghanistan after 32 years Service.
PTSD is a serious mental health issue but IT'S MY ISSUE and it isn't an excuse to ruin someone's day.
It's incumbent on the individual to identify their triggers and either:
A. Avoid
Or
B. Cope.
For my own part I can quite easily play a contemporary conflict game including Campaigns I've been involved in without any issues at all and I don't know of any of my fellow veterans / gamers that have any issues RE: Wargamers.
I'll even happily move some ‘Terry Taliban' around on a table, (though they always tend to lose quite badly) 🧐
Unless someone hosts a game where they jack up the AC to 40 C, throw sand and dirt in peoples faces and have lots of ‘LOUD NOISES' I think I can maintain my composure 😂

No "outraged" person condemned my games. Why would they? I wonder what "outraged" would even mean. I bet it would define the answer. Curious, why is this blatantly political thread allowed here? Have the rules changed and nobody told me?

Blatantly ‘Political'?
Seriously?
I can't see this being a right / left post!
It's an interesting post that's relevant to the hobby and PARTICULARLY given the SOCIAL climate we live in today.
Could it be you are seeming something here that isn't?
Besides, if you find the post uninteresting why comment?

So, the evidence for people choosing to be outraged and trying to stop games seems to show the following groups.

1. A small smattering of 'anti war' types objecting to games that glorify war. I disagree with them but would support their right to state their views, as long as it is done peaceably – freedom of speech is important right?

2. Some people objecting to the use or display of symbols that are linked to highly objectionable historical events such as genocide or slavery. I again would disagree with such people about the use of such symbols in the context of a historical game but would want to have a dialogue with them about our differing views. You would have to be some sort of pathetic snowflake if you are not even willing to listen to someone explain why they believe such symbols are are objectionable in and of themselves right? Open discussion between people is a good way to educate is it not?

3. The very occasional nutter who objects to something for their own highly idiosyncratic views. Ah well, such people exist everywhere – what ya gonna do?

4. The concerted campaign by religious conservatives to ban RPGs because they are 'evil'. These people I find to be truly dangerous – they seem to genuinely believe they have the right to tell others how to live their lives (or what games to play) based on nothing but their own personal conviction. We really need to keep a close eye on such a group of 'them'.

Cheers

So, the evidence for people choosing to be outraged and trying to stop games seems to show the following groups.

1. A small smattering of 'anti war' types objecting to games that glorify war. I disagree with them but would support their right to state their views, as long as it is done peaceably – freedom of speech is important right?

Very very important!!!

2. Some people objecting to the use or display of symbols that are linked to highly objectionable historical events such as genocide or slavery. I again would disagree with such people about the use of such symbols in the context of a historical game but would want to have a dialogue with them about our differing views. You would have to be some sort of pathetic snowflake if you are not even willing to listen to someone explain why they believe such symbols are are objectionable in and of themselves right? Open discussion between people is a good way to educate is it not?

as long as they are respectful I'd have no issue with hearing why a person objects to these ‘symbols' and I'd explain that ‘rewriting history' isn't a useful way of preventing bad things from happening and see point 1 above (free speech is important). That includes speech you don't like.

3. The very occasional nutter who objects to something for their own highly idiosyncratic views. Ah well, such people exist everywhere – what ya gonna do?

Hey, S#%t happens,…

4. The concerted campaign by religious conservatives to ban RPGs because they are 'evil'. These people I find to be truly dangerous – they seem to genuinely believe they have the right to tell others how to live their lives (or what games to play) based on nothing but their own personal conviction. We really need to keep a close eye on such a group of 'them'.

I know lots of ‘religious conservative' people. Never met one who wants to ban RPG or Fantasy / ScFi games.
In fact, some of them are ‘gamers'.
I think the group you're describing are better termed ‘religious nutters'.
They are probably as numerous as your ‘vanilla nutters'.
Again, want you gonna do?

Cheers

Thanks for your reasoned reply.

I think that you are being unfair on the people that would argue against 'symbols of hate' when you suggest they are trying to rewrite history. In my experience their argument against the use of such symbols in games is based round the issue of normalisation. They would argue that the common use of a symbol such as the swastika normalises its use. And that the normalisation of such a symbol is the first step by the pedlars of hate in normalising such hateful views and indeed the rewriting of history (the Holocaust didn't happen etc). I would disagree with their logic but would applaud their aims.

I am aware that the use and display of the 'confederate flag' in the U.S. is a far more fraught topic and I hesitate to raise it. I go so far to say however that if you can allow that some people experience it as a symbol of oppression and hate it is fair that they treat it as such. There is of course a big debate on what this flag indeed symbolises, which is of course where the passion enters in. However, as the Nazis at the now infamous march in Charllotesville were carrying both the confederate flag and Nazi Swastika side by side it is not unreasonable for their opponents to see the two symbols in some way linked?

The 'anti war brigades' objections are indeed similar – mainly to do with normalisation. They would argue that war is horrific and should be avoided whenever possible. Making a game out of it normalises it and therefore makes people more willing to accept it. I think we can all agree that war is indeed horrific and that at best it may be a necessary evil. I am just not convinced by the normalisation logic – and it is also unfortunate that such arguments are often put stridently and somewhat incoherently.

Finally I would like to thank you for reminding me that I should not judge a group by the actions of some of its members. In the context of a thread about people that are trying to ban games, I do think it is worth pointing out that the only time anything like an organised or sustained campaign to stop people playing the type of games we play has come from a religious movement. So if we want to have a bit of a panic about such a thing in the present honestly acknowledging this is probably a good idea. Especially when the religious campaign in the past was accompanied by book burning (as mentioned in this thread). Book burning should always ring a bit of an alarm I feel.

From my experience, far from being under threat war gaming and gaming in general is going through a massive expansion at the moment, it has never been bigger or more popular. So warnings about some shadowy 'them' coming to take our toys away I find to be frank rather bizarre and more suited to some agenda other than the playing of games.

Not a game per se but a gamer. At one of the HMGS-South shows where I was Convention Coordinator we had someone very incensed by one of the gamers in a FOW game. He was wearing one of the "World Tour" shirts that we see occasionally at shows. In this case it was one for Grossdeutschland and the person (who was a gamer by the way) was very upset over what they clearly saw as glorification of this unit. The game itself didnt bother them since it had historical precedent.