"Security at Gaming Conventions, Shows or Tournaments" Topic

After the recent incident in Florida involving an individual with mental health issues who shot people at a videogame tournament, the issue is raised whether conventions in our hobby need security – or whether venues in the future will require security before a show can be booked.

Highly unlikely in the UK.

I reckon it's kind of like worrying over getting struck by lightininh

Might as well become a shut-in, if you can't go anywhere without being afraid… I for one, don't want to live in a police state. I'll take my chances. The world is a dangerous place and bad things happen. You can't let that stop you from living.

I don't know of anyone who has raised the issue until you did Bill. I don't know how anyone could force you to hire a security firm before booking you for a venue. Wouldn't that be on them?

What Mr. Magoo said.

I don't worry about the convention at all.

If we don't admit the crazies, just how big do you think the conventions will be?

The way that we, as a community, should decide upon an issue like this is to wargame it out. We'll need a 1/56 model of the Lancaster Host and a large number of 28mm scale wargamers (many appropriately chubby). Who wouldn't want to play a game about being in the convention you're actually in?

Make sure venues are not gun free zones. Most gamers ,except for RPGers,are mostly conservative. Based on my experiance and probably conceal carry.

I would rather have armed security guards or off duty police. Seriously, have you ever been to a game convention? You want those guys packing heat?

By the way. I am a hard core military history gamer and veteran and I am not conservative. I can't stand it when someone makes an assumption. I have never owned a firearm in my life. Somehow I have managed to survive just fine.

Ho9nestly, there have been more shootings in churches than gaming conventions… I'd like to see churches sport the security before the conventions.

This is a joke, isn't it !

Surely sane people can't be having this conversation, or making the absurd suggestions 3 posts up from this, and be serious.

Thank God it wasn't a terrorist. Just another White guy with mental health issues… My Lord… how many times do I gotta hear that?

Surely sane people can't be having this conversation, or making the absurd suggestions 3 posts up from this, and be serious.

Agreed, but unfortunately that's part of the debate in the US: more security, arming wargamers, conceal carry, etc. #Sad

GildasFacit,
"Surely sane people can't be having this conversation, or making the absurd suggestions 3 posts up from this, and be serious"
It may be just another white man with mental health issues. But yes, this is how some think we deal with the problem. It's insane…

+10 JimDuncanUK

it's a different world we live in today then the one I grew up in. Our church, of which I am one of the staff Pastors, does have a security team that patrols our parking lots during our services and we also have concealed armed individuals attending each of our three services on Sunday. We have a number of policemen including a Captain and detective who attend our services, and they all pack also.

In Australia the choice is increasingly being taken out of the hands of organizers and even hall renters. Once you reach a certain size you have to submit a 'development application' (and pay various fees) to local government who may impose conditions like security on site (either 24 hour or just while open), on site paramedics & fire fighters. The more greedy will try to get organizations to pay for road upgrades and such if they think they can get away with it.

The Florida shooting is just going to encourage outside organizations like 'Security' services, medical and whatever to insist that they get a share of potential money they think can be screwed out of the public who will attend a public entertainment.

I am more worried about being struck by lightning, or, worse, winning the lottery but losing the ticket before I present it.

Your money would be better spent forcing gamers to shower and brush their teeth… that would have a positive effect on every convention in the US.

I don't know how anyone could force you to hire a security firm before booking you for a venue. Wouldn't that be on them?

I can envision a hotel having a policy against hosting gaming events unless heightened security is provided. They may not distinguish between videogame tournaments and miniature wargaming tournaments…

My guess is that on any given weekend the number of separate gaming related functions numbers in the thousands. I am including, events like the one in Florida, local Magic and other card game comptions, Bolt Action, Flames of War War Hammer 40K and similar organized miniatures events as well as other similar events. Then at the national and regional level we have a dozen or two multi-day functions. And some of those multi-day cons have need going on for 40 years. So it is reasonable to conclude that in the last 10 years we are looking at least a couple of 100,000 events with several million attendees. During which only one incident involved fatalities and made the national news. So as Dr Skull pointed out we are talking about a risk up there with being hit by lightening.

Having said that I have two concerns, the first is that the knowledge of the existence of these events has just moved from the gaming communities to the general public which means they have all been moved up on the potential target list. The second is that because it happened, and despite the extremely low risk of it happening again the organizers of these events are now obligated to take all reasonable precautions to prevent something like this happening at their event, if only to limit their financial exposure if the "lightening" should strike their event. Unfortunately this is not idle speculation, the Jacksonville Landing, the site of the tournament and shooting has been notified that they will be the subject of a law suit citing "negligent security". What is not clear is whether they put on the event and how much their declaration that the event site is a gun free zone has to do with the threatened suit.

As to what constitutes "all reasonable precautions" is something that would be established in court by lawyers after the fact. But to start, this means any event that does not have liability insurance needs to get it, that any organization putting on this type of event needs to be organized as a corporation. Then they need to do a careful and complete risk assessment to determine three things what protections the really need, the protections the attendees need to feel safe (other wise they may not come) and what they needed to have done as to have a reasonable defense in court.

Which gets me to my last thought, once you have implemented a security provision at your event as a practical matter you can never eliminate it. For doing so increases the events legal liability should something happen. For example an overreacting organization puts metal detectors at all entrances and hires a number of armed uniformed security guards augmented by contracted police coverage and after a couple of events decide that the risk does not deserve that level of coverage and expense. So they scale it back. Then a few years later "lightening strikes". Which means the organizers will find them selves in court trying to justify the reduction in the face of an argument, evidenced by the "lightening strike" that the real risk did not justify the security reduction and by making the reduction they placed the attendees in increased danger.

That jerk in Florida just made planing public events for our hobby much more complicated.

Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut the bigger churches already have armed security on site during Sunday services. But that is more to prevent robberies, a mega-church can easily have 10 to 20 thousand dollars on the premises on a Sunday. Though the security staff at a Colorado Mega-Church did stop a shooting.

I've BEEN security at wargaming conventions, back in the late 80s/early90s. I used to trade 24 hours of con security duty for a room to sleep in and admission at L.A. cons. Great fun, I got to play a bunch of Phil Eklund's games there with the designer. A friend came too, he liked to do boardgame tournaments in his off-duty hours.

But that was really con security, waking sleepers in the common areas, keeping the peace among boisterous late night groups, keeping an eye out for theft or bad conduct.

Certainly NOT armed patrol or suchlike.

At US shows I would like to see armed security. Not at UK ones though.

According to Mr Poop "conceal carry" is common at US shows. Worrying! I might go and game with those left wing RPG players, they sound a bit more balanced.

Most conventions I attend do have some sort of security. This is usually some elderly, overweight, Barney Fife sort of guy who worries me more than any possible shooter :)

My husband(a combat vet) and I never go anywhere without our Glocks.

The politics of gun control aside, Bill is correct in that there are venues that require the contract signer to provide security for their event at their own expense. Any event organizer needs to look at attendance and risk factors to determine whether they need security/parking lot patrol/whatever. A local con drawing 200 people probably does not, while a larger con drawing 5,000 people very well may. And the word "security" is pretty broad and ranges from unarmed and untrained to off duty/special duty police officers. As noted in one of the posts above, it is not uncommon for the police officers of a church congregation to form the nucleus of a church's security team.

Going everywhere with guns only leads to a greater chance of getting killed by a gun. Concealed or open carry doesn't prevent small altercations from escalating, it does just the opposite in that it gives a sense of empowerment to the holder and thus small altercations suddenly turn into fatalities when they would otherwise might get shrugged off or at worse result in a bloody nose.

Shows need to be gun free. The idea that an armed society is a polite society was disproven when duels were accepted behavior. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

If we cannot always avoid games with folks who sometimes hurl their dice or figures in anger, you want to see them with a gun nearby?

This was a prize winning tournament with a lot of chops. I watched one a couple of years ago for the championship on tv. These guys are serious and the loser takes it pretty hard. Add a condition that could set you off and this could happen. But what are the odds? Enough to cancel the next one? At least have detection devices at the door and check bags etc.

Aethelflaeda was framed, agree with you sir.

I was at Origins, and the tight security they had was summed up by the one guard I saw, he was on a mobility scooter, with an oxygen tank who was 60 years+. He couldn't stop a toddler.

GUNS AT CHURCH. PERFECT. Jesus would love you for that, I'm sure of it. Christ almighty… sounds like those idiots in PA, who brought their AR-15's to "church" to have their "Iron Rods" blessed by some insane "God"…

"My husband(a combat vet) and I never go anywhere without our Glocks."

You crazy Dutch folk and your weird footwear :)

So let's say that someone whips out a gun over losing a game of Napoleonics at a convention. Here's my take on it:

First: Before a shot is even fired, a huge argument breaks out over the type of weapon. Is it appropriate to be using a semi-automatic, cartridge pistol to shoot people at a Napoleonic game? It's agreed that a muzzle-loader is more correct, and our frustrated gamer goes out to get one.

Then: Once the shooter arrives with a muzzle loader, another argument erupts over whether it should be a caplock, or a flintlock pistol. It's agreed that a flintlock would be more correct for murders at a Napoleonic game. Our frustrated gamer goes out to find a flintlock.

Then: Once the shooter arrives with a flintlock muzzle loader, there might be an argument over whether the pistol should be French, or would another nationality be appropriate. This argument veers off because of the fact that most modern replica pistols are made in India, so should the pistol be a modern replica, or an original? A side argument points out that building pistols overseas is taking jobs from America. Before all this can be hashed out, both the local police AND the elderly on-site security guard arrive, and the shooter is stopped.

Simple, really.

EDIT: Credit to cosmicbank for the original idea.

BrianW: you forgot "As the crazed pistoleer pulls back the hammer, somebody opens a shaken-up beer and inundates the frizzen, halting any sparking taking place. The would-be shooter is then given a horrific sentence--no Wally's Basement for the remainder of the convention"

I've never been to any HMGS-E conventions, so wouldn't have known about that specific punishment. From what I've heard about Wally's basement though, it might be ruled as cruel and unusual punishment.

I'm sorry that guys like Aethelflaeda, Ceterman and Rally Now are so triggered by this discussion.

I have to laugh at those who are so alarmed at the idea of attendees having firearms when PA is one of the many numerous concealed carry states throughout the country.

You have probably gamed with more than a few times with someone who was carrying at the time. In my experience I find that the folks who put themselves through the many background checks required to carry are the last people you need to worry about.

Also, how many years has this hobby been in existance? Video gaming is just one of thousands of LOOSELY related hobbies (sort of like my wife's, cousin's, son's, friend's, roommate.) Anyone care to calculate the odds on that? Must be like 0.00000001%

If anything like this were to ever happen I can't think of a better place to be with all that tactical training and knowhow out there with all the former military,agency and police in our midst.

Take my humble advice and don't worry about it.
It comes down to personal responsability and having the freedom to protect what is dear to you. Especially my toy soldiers…

TRU

>You have probably gamed with more than a few times with someone who was carrying at the time. In my experience I find that the folks who put themselves through the many background checks required to carry are the last people you need to worry about.

Triggered? Really…

I know a few who carry that shouldn't. PTSD is real, but they have the piece of paper. Others I have met are just crazy and should not even be given a driver's license, but the folks giving out the paper often are politically driven enough that they cannot be trusted to be objective. The Florida shooter himself had obtained his weapons legally.

Concealed carry, even if currently legal is a really bad idea. It hasn't the proven effect of "deterance" it's supposed to achieve, and just puts more folks at risk.

If a gun shot erupts in a con, I don't want bystanders to start shooting as well, that too is a myth in that it can stop a bad guy. It will just result in more bullets flying, more likely to be stopped by an innocent then a bad guy.

Crowded public events are not the place for any guns, legally concealed carried or not.

Look at the statistics.

Then look at the guy who only straps on his weapon on his hip and wonder if he really is just indulging in as much of a fantasy as the figs he brought to the con. Training…too many of historical fantasists think that because they can push lead around a table that would make them a great soldier…fantasy there, fantasy about their ability to use a gun.

You have probably gamed with more than a few times with someone who was carrying at the time.

Only if you live & game in the US. In the rest of the developed world we, statistically, don't have to worry about being murdered by a firearm at wargaming conventions or elsewhere.

Most gamers, except for RPGers, are mostly conservative.

Not the guys I game with the most. And I didn't seek them out, either; we just happen to enjoy the same kinds of games and rules sets. I think that's statistically significant.

My larger point is why get yourself all worked up unnecessarily over something that is statistically as unlikely as this is.

You can argue that it shouldn't be allowed… it's a free country. I'm only pointing out that it has been legal all this time and everyone was blissfully ignorant to that fact.

"Then look at the guy who only straps on his weapon on his hip and wonder if he really is just indulging in as much of a fantasy as the figs he brought to the con. Training…too many of historical fantasists think that because they can push lead around a table that would make them a great soldier…fantasy there, fantasy about their ability to use a gun."

You are way off the mark here. I get it, you don't like guns… thats fine.

I was referring to the unusually high percentage of retired and active duty professional soldiers, agents and police in our hobby. I wasn't even talking about the individual who carries for personal protection.

ochoin said:
"Only if you live & game in the US. In the rest of the developed world we, statistically, don't have to worry about being murdered by a firearm at wargaming conventions or elsewhere."

You have a better chance of being hit by a truck.

TRU

>You can argue that it shouldn't be allowed… it's a free country. I'm only pointing out that it has been legal all this time and everyone was blissfully ignorant to that fact.

No it hasn't been legal all this time. Concealed carry without a job requiring it is pretty much a modern thing. Open display, while legal was much rarer…I have only seen routine open carry in the last 10 years, it was at least frowned upon, and those who did it, unless for their job, probably considered yahoos.

Yeah, it was rare to get killed for parking illegally in a handicapped spot once upon a time. Rare to get shot playing a video game, or rare to get shot even in a school. The presence of guns in the numbers that are now present, particularly if concealed, is only going to make the possibility, as remote as it seems, just that much more likely. And it is completely needless. I am sure the 13 people killed and wounded in Jacksonville aren't terribly impressed with the supposed rarity.

If the threat violence is so rare as you state, what problem do you have with a gun free con in the first place? Check your guns at the door. This ain't a game of Westworld where you can indulge in the fantasy of being a tough hombre secured by his weapon, when the reality of the behaviour makes it just that much more likely that irrevocable repercussion of the fantasy is going to seriously hurt or kill someone. We don't let people fantasize about being Richard Petty on the highways by speeding…I am not prepared to excuse the same sort of fantasy of being Wyatt Earp or Clint Eastwood in a space that people must share.

"My larger point is why get yourself all worked up unnecessarily over something that is statistically as unlikely as this is."

Someone posts a valid point against this kinda talk & all they get are comments about "getting all worked up".
I don't get worked up about it till I read insane post's such as these on this page.

"My husband(a combat vet)and I never go anywhere without our Glocks"
What if it's been a bad morning & you & hubby get into an argument over the price of Gibbles at Weis Market?

"Gun's at Church"
Just like Jesus.

"Mega-church can easily have 10 to 20 thousand dollars on the premises on a Sunday AND GUNS" Again, F'n GREAT. TAX the Hell outta em, then.
"My God's better than your God! Oh Yeah?…"

How many of you people have killed a man with your Glock, heat, gat or whatever. Did ya like it? Did you kill him/her with the first shot? Was it a head shot? Did it ricochet? Do you know how many bullets are fired on average to hit a person one time? Do you long to do it again? Do you feel it necessary to carry your Glock to the liquor store?
And as far as I know, I've NEVER gamed with someone "packing heat" nor would I want to. If I found out they were, I'd tell them to leave. Now. I'm playing with toy guns. I don't want some testosterone filled gas bag with an actual weapon at the same table as I am.
"You have a better chance of being hit by a truck"
And that chance gets better every damn day.

You have a better chance of being hit by a truck.

True. But you have over ten times more chance of being killed by a gun in the US than in OZ or, indeed, any of the other developed countries.

Guns at church? I believe that in the Temple where Jesus worshiped the religious leaders had Temple Guards who were armed with the Weapons of the day. I didn't see Him getting excited and rebuking them for that. I'm just sayin'.

Aethelflaeda
Whatever… It's clear you have an issue with guns. Let's leave it at that.

"what problem do you have with a gun free con in the first place?"

None whatsoever, but it's useless to fret over this since it's been the law for longer than I've been attending wargaming conventions in PA.

TRU

Ceterman said:

"Someone posts a valid point against this kinda talk & all they get are comments about "getting all worked up".
I don't get worked up about it till I read insane post's such as these on this page.

"My husband(a combat vet)and I never go anywhere without our Glocks"
What if it's been a bad morning & you & hubby get into an argument over the price of Gibbles at Weis Market?

"Gun's at Church"
Just like Jesus.

"Mega-church can easily have 10 to 20 thousand dollars on the premises on a Sunday AND GUNS" Again, F'n GREAT. TAX the Hell outta em, then.
"My God's better than your God! Oh Yeah?…"

How many of you people have killed a man with your Glock, heat, gat or whatever. Did ya like it? Did you kill him/her with the first shot? Was it a head shot? Did it ricochet? Do you know how many bullets are fired on average to hit a person one time? Do you long to do it again? Do you feel it necessary to carry your Glock to the liquor store?
And as far as I know, I've NEVER gamed with someone "packing heat" nor would I want to. If I found out they were, I'd tell them to leave. Now. I'm playing with toy guns. I don't want some testosterone filled gas bag with an actual weapon at the same table as I am.
"You have a better chance of being hit by a truck"
And that chance gets better every damn day."

I know exactly what you mean by insane posts…

TRU