Tango01 | 16 Aug 2018 12:22 p.m. PST |
…. vs Star Wars: Who Would Win? YouTube link
Amicaleeent Armand
|
JimSelzer | 16 Aug 2018 1:42 p.m. PST |
photons torpedo vs Tie fighters Empire lacks the heavy weapons but not sure the Feds have the point defense would be a very interesting fight assuming a neutral set of rules are used |
SBminisguy | 16 Aug 2018 5:35 p.m. PST |
Shouldn't be a contest since in Star Trek the ships move and fire at Warp speed (FTL) while Star Wars ships fly at "normal" sub-light speeds in space, using Hyperjump to travel between star systems. Star Wars ships also can only fire at sub-light speed targets. So a Star Wars ship would literally never know what hit it -- a Star Destroyer squadron would simply start taking damage and exploding, never seeing their enemy…like a modern warship using drones and radar to target and destroy Age of Sail warships over the horizon…BOOM goes HMS Victory! |
Tango01 | 17 Aug 2018 11:20 a.m. PST |
|
StarCruiser | 17 Aug 2018 5:20 p.m. PST |
Well – except that the HMS Victory would be nearly invisible to radar guided anything. No significant heat signature, very little metal high up enough to reflect much radar etc… Wood, canvas and hemp ropes don't reflect radar very well… |
Earl of the North | 18 Aug 2018 12:22 p.m. PST |
SBMinisguy, I believe your suggesting warp strafing which seems to be a doubtful tactic since even combat at warp seems to be very rare in the new films. link Of course I'm basing this on wiki, since I don't care enough to chase down the actual sources. But if the wiki is correct, its never been done and there is no reason to think that it would in this theoretical clash. |
SBminisguy | 18 Aug 2018 3:42 p.m. PST |
Well – except that the HMS Victory would be nearly invisible to radar guided anything Not really, while wood is a weak reflector they are large masses in the ocean and they have some nifty metal bits on them like lighting rods on the masts, metal fittings and such. And a drone could visually spot them. And even if we go with your idea that HMS Victory would give off a weak return, and you don't think you'd get a missile lock (unlikely) a modern warship would dish out death with its 5" guns from 13 miles away. So the HMS Victory could see an Arligh Burke DDG on the horizon as it blew them apart from a very safe distance. Just like a Trek ship would calmly blow away a Star Wars ship. |
SBminisguy | 18 Aug 2018 3:47 p.m. PST |
SBMinisguy, I believe your suggesting warp strafing which seems to be a doubtful tactic since even combat at warp seems to be very rare in the new films. Well, like any entertainment show or movie the story is more important than the tech, but in Trek we have both numerous episodes of Warp speed combat and in the Trek tech manuals. On Page 84 of the Deep Space 9 Technical Manual:a phaser beam can be delivered at warp speeds due to an annular confinement beam jacket and other advances in subspace technology (Source) Torpedoes: yes (both quantum and photon) On multiple occasions we see a torpedo being launched by a starship whilst at warp. The idea behind this is that the torpedo is capable of maintaining the warp field it had when fired from the ship, but eventually slows out of warp. link And if you ever play the game Star Fleet Battles, IIRC a ship with only sublight capabilities against any Warp capable ship is shredded pretty fast. But the match-up doesn't hold well because the assumptions of technology are different. BSG is the same type of tech as Star Wars, for example, so that's a more straight up match up. |
Earl of the North | 21 Aug 2018 12:09 a.m. PST |
Its apparently been changed by the new movies…. [q]New Trek Star Trek Into Darkness reveals that the only Federation starship capable of engaging in combat at warp speed is the USS Vengeance, and even then it was only tried against another target traveling at warp, meaning their relative speed was not very high. It follows that warp strafing is not a viable tactic in the "new Trek" timeline.[/q] Also it apparently has never appeared to have happened in any of the classic Star Trek series, so as an argument I cannot give it much credit. BSG us in no way the same tech as BSG….want to flee the cylons, star wars ships can travel the galaxy with ease. So much so that the last Jedi has to introduce fuel being a problem for the resistance to explain why the rebel don't just scatter and hyperspace across the galaxy. Weaponry, while projectile weapons are still used in the Star Wars universe, the energy weapons used are off the chart powerful compared to Galactica's conventional weapons. Shielding, Star wars has it Galactica doesn't. I'd actually say Star Destroyer vs BSG, easy win for the ISD every time. |
Earl of the North | 21 Aug 2018 4:20 a.m. PST |
I couldn't edit the above…. Frankly though, these versus discussion always go nowhere because even if you pull all the info from different universes they usually don't gel very well and the official lore is often muddled and contradictory. I remember a website that really went into this SW vs ST, I believe their conclusion was that the SW having hyper drives as opposed to warp drives was that the SW force could essentially run rings strategically around Star Fleet forcing them to turtle up in important systems since the SW force could literally attack anywhere in our universe and should always have the initiative. Aside from having a fixed entry point being a fixed target, the SW Force could literally be based across the galaxy from the Federation and would be able to raid them at will. |
Ghostrunner | 21 Aug 2018 7:34 p.m. PST |
Warp strafing: Elyaan of Troyius (Klingons) Journey to Babel (Orions, at Warp 10 no less) Two examples off the top of my head. |
Earl of the North | 22 Aug 2018 8:54 a.m. PST |
Elaan of TroyiusTrekkie debaters often cite the TOS episode "Elaan of Troyius" as an example of a canonical warp strafe, saying a Klingon vessel makes repeated strafing runs against the Enterprise, which is limited to impulse power because the warp core was sabotaged. There are several problems with this example, however. Sulu counts down the range between the vessels in tens of thousands of kilometers over several seconds, indicating the relative velocity between the starships is less than lightspeed. Episodes like "Mudd's Women" show that it is possible to achieve warp speed for a limited time without a functioning warp core, so it's possible that the Enterprise is engaging in FTL maneuvers using power from its impulse engines. The low-end estimate for the klingon ship's speed on a warp 7 attack run is 343c. Assuming a disruptor range of a light-second, the klingon ship would be in range for less than 3 milliseconds on a "strafing" run against a sublight target. The Klingon weapon discharges took far longer. Maneuvers at warp speed will arc across millions of kilometers of space, at minimum. The klingon ship could not reasonably warp to an unshielded side of the Enterprise and then turn to bring its forward weapons to bear and still be in disruptor range if it's relative speed was greater than lightspeed the entire time. In light of these difficulties, it seems more plausible that the klingon cruiser is using warp to position itself for a shot at the weakened shield of the Enterprise, slowing to match speeds while it brings its weapons to bear and fires, then accelerating away again before the Enterprise can shoot back with photon torpedoes (which would not be weakened by the loss of warp power on the Enterprise). This is undeniably effective, but it does not constitute firing on a sublight target while moving at warp speed. Journey to BabelTOS "Journey to Babel" is also cited as an example of warp strafing. The Enterprise is attacked by an unidentified vessel with modified warp engines, giving it greater speed than the Enterprise by a couple of warp factors. It repeatedly approaches the Enterprise at Warp 8 and rakes the ship with phaser fire, but the Enterprise is unable to effectively return fire against the fast-moving attacker. Kirk is eventually forced to trick the enemy ship into approaching at sublight speed in order to deal with it. The fact that the enemy approaches at sublight speed when the Enterprise is "stopped" indicates that a warp strafe would not be plausible against a "stationary" target. link Seems to be a good source for Star Wars vs Star Trek debates. No idea of its accuracy. link |
Ghostrunner | 22 Aug 2018 9:06 a.m. PST |
Interesting points, but I still see it on screen as a warping ship shooting at a much slower / sublight / stopped ship. Not suggesting that the idea of wrap-strafing is particularly plausible (for the same reasons cited), but within the canon of the show it seems to be employed. The fact that the enemy approaches at sublight speed when the Enterprise is "stopped" indicates that a warp strafe would not be plausible against a "stationary" target. Being able to hit a target and get accurate scans of its condition are two different things. I always read it as the Orions wanting to see how badly they'd hurt the Enterprise… for whatever reason. |
Earl of the North | 22 Aug 2018 12:42 p.m. PST |
I don't think its ever been confirmed as canon that warp strafing is possible. Its more fans trying to make scientific sense of a tv series plot, also in the case of the new movies all the old lore seems to have been abandoned with combat at warp (aside from one ship) being impossible. No idea how the new series further muddies the water, lore wise. It seems Star Trek is currently constantly re imaging its self at the moment…..which for me was a major reason I've not really been watching the recent stuff. Most battles seem to be sublight, not least because it looks cooler on screen. One thought I had was Interdictors link would these drag ships out of warp in the same why the do out of hyperspace? If so then we have a reason why warp strafing an Imperial fleet wouldn't work, even if it was canon….providing they had an interdictor in the engagement. |
Gunfreak | 22 Aug 2018 1:49 p.m. PST |
Well since the New movies and discovery doesn't count, we can ignore them. |
Ghostrunner | 22 Aug 2018 1:52 p.m. PST |
Good question on the Interdictors… In ST:TMP, Kirk says they have to RISK going to warp while still in the solar system. Three movies later, they take a BOP to warp speed – WHILE STILL IN THE FREAKING ATMOSPHERE! So it's unclear what effect gravity fields have on the operation of a warp drive. |
Gunfreak | 22 Aug 2018 2:33 p.m. PST |
Not warping in a solar system, looks more like a health and safety issue, then a technical issue. |
Earl of the North | 22 Aug 2018 3:27 p.m. PST |
The Lore often doesn't make sense, look at the last Jedi…..using Hyperspace jump as a weapon, so why isn't this widespread. Droid pilot, hyperspace generator and ship and you've a weapon that is apparently unstoppable. This assumes you remove all the safety procedures that stop you from flying into stuff when you go to ludicrous speed. Of course if the First Order had been using Interdictors the movie would have ended in the first 10 mins (since they couldn't have escaped), but I really shouldn't start pointing out stupid things in the new timeline movies…..but seriously nobody in the fleet thought to bring something that was basic Imperial strategy since the Interdictors were introduced to the timeline. |
ScottWashburn | 23 Aug 2018 4:18 a.m. PST |
In the "Nemesis" movie, the Scimitar hits and disables the Enterprise while both are at warp speed. |
Earl of the North | 23 Aug 2018 7:44 a.m. PST |
The new movies seems to have changed that for some reason. Prior to that battles at warp speed were possible, the warp strafing assumes that you can attack at warp against a stationery or sub light opponent….of course if its possible why isn't it used more. DS9 for instance is attacked repeatedly at sub light speeds, if its such a dominating tactic then I would expect to see it used more often. |
Ghostrunner | 23 Aug 2018 7:56 a.m. PST |
I suspect there's also the fact that getting hit by a torpedo while cruising at sublight is preferable to getting hit by that same torpedo when you are doing 64x lightspeed. |
Earl of the North | 23 Aug 2018 10:46 a.m. PST |
Ah, but the point with warp strafing was that its supposed to be unbeatable tactic, which would make travelling at sublight extremely dangerous for the SW ships. Of course if this was correct it would also make every ST ship vunerable to the same tactics, indeed it should be the go to attack in a ST ship duel unless both are already at warp. |
Part time gamer | 23 Sep 2018 11:24 p.m. PST |
Of course then theres the 'Ultimate Power' in any of these Galaxies. If 'we're" loosing money, then just make up the 'science' too get the ratings and Profit back up. |