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"Anyone used Pike & Shot for Samurai battles?" Topic


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1,105 hits since 30 Jul 2018
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Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP30 Jul 2018 10:06 a.m. PST

I haven't looked into any rules for Samurai since Terry Gore's "Medieval Warfare" and Brian Bradford's "Killer Katanas."

Both were classics in their time. I recently read Black Powder and Hail Caesar, however and really liked the core ideas in the game, especially the unit customization.

That got me interested in giving Pike & Shotte a try for 28mm samurai. I've ordered the rules already but in the mean time I tried to find some battle reports using samurai for the rules. Unfortunately I came up with zero search results both at TMP and at the wider web.

I was just wondering if anyone had tried out the rules with samurai and how you liked them.

Thanks.

Personal logo Bashytubits Supporting Member of TMP30 Jul 2018 1:22 p.m. PST

Here you go.

link

sillypoint30 Jul 2018 2:59 p.m. PST

These look good!

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP30 Jul 2018 3:16 p.m. PST

Thank you Bashy, I've actually seen Warlords list. What I was looking for and maybe I didn't make clear enough was, I was hoping for some examples of battle reports.

It's all good, I'll have the rules soon enough. Plus, with the amount of painting I've got to do its gonna be a LONG time before I get to play a game of P&S.

Irish Marine Supporting Member of TMP30 Jul 2018 5:16 p.m. PST

Pikeman's Lament would work.

Personal logo Bashytubits Supporting Member of TMP30 Jul 2018 5:25 p.m. PST

I have always wanted to do a Pike and shot battle of Spaniards or Portuguese vs the Samurai, as it never happened but came very close to occurring during a couple of diplomatic incidents.

saltflats192931 Jul 2018 8:47 a.m. PST

I have tried Pikeman's Lament, since I don't have enough Samurai types painted yet for a big battle.
link

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP31 Jul 2018 9:25 a.m. PST

Bashy, there's a Spanish vs Samurai AAR a guy did that's posted somewhere on the internet.

I was interested in that scenario too, but never more than my interest in Samurai vs Samurai battles.

I'd like to use P&S for some smaller Koreans vs Samurai as well.

If only there was a good line of Ming Chinese out there. Brian Bradford has an amazing Imjin War scenario book.

Wulfgar31 Jul 2018 1:22 p.m. PST

Irregular Wars, Pikeman's Lament, and Daisho for me, depending on the scale of the fight.

Mac163801 Aug 2018 6:25 a.m. PST

I have been using Peter Pig's Battles in the age of War,
A nice pre-amble which my alter what you've got, when it comes,objectives and deploy your army in a Japanese manor.
My armies are based up for DBR and FoG R as long as both sides are based in the same manor.
All in all not difacult rules very playable and it has a feel of Japanese warfare.

Loki7706 Aug 2018 7:28 a.m. PST

Had my Samurai for quite awhile and had not had a real; chance to use them until last Friday.
We played Battles in the Age of War. Thoroughly enjoyable ruleset with some great pre-battle stuff.

Wansui07 Aug 2018 10:35 p.m. PST

If only there was a good line of Ming Chinese out there.

All in good time.

Brian Bradford has an amazing Imjin War scenario book.

While I commend his efforts,the work in itself should be treated as an introductory source with some noticeable errors in the armor department. Most modern Chinese and Korean illustrations aren't much better unfortunately.

barcah2001 Supporting Member of TMP10 Aug 2018 5:54 a.m. PST

Wansui,
Interested to hear what the armor errors are.
Have lots of samurai thinking of getting Koreans/Ming

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP10 Aug 2018 8:32 a.m. PST

"Most modern Chinese and Korean illustrations aren't much better unfortunately"

Wansui, I would not argue that at all. If you don't read Chinese or Korean (like me) and Bradfords book is the only one you can find at all with Imjin scenarios, he suddenly becomes the subject matter expert and your best friend.

I hope you are correct about 28mm Ming. All my favorite battles from this conflict involve both the Ming and Koreans.

Wansui10 Aug 2018 1:33 p.m. PST

Interested to hear what the armor errors are.

Koreans have to extrapolate pre/post Imjin sources(hence some degree of anachronism) as there are no surviving Korean pictorial sources from the Imjin War. Fortunately,there are surviving brigandine,lamellar as well as textual references to cotton and paper armor that can be used to reconstruct the time period.

On the other hand,there is a plethora of contemporary Ming paintings and manuals with the main caveat;lack of extant armors.

B3 and C2 are movie props.

B4. An early Ming temple guardian. Given the ceremonial nature of the armor as well as the shift towards Zhao Jia based armors this would prove to be a poor fit for a Northern Chinese general.

C1. I won't comment on the veracity of the image given my lack of knowledge of Southeast Asian armors only that rattan armor was largely meant for naval operations and rarer than paper or leather. Zheng Wo Ji Gong Tu Juan depicts Liu Ting's native auxiliaries with lacquered leather armor instead.

C3. Traditional lamellar cataphract armors would be more appropriate. The helmet is based on the Wanli's Emperor parade helmet.

C4. An accurate representation of paper armor,the only thing missing is the paper armguards. Do note that Southern soldiers from the 1593 Ming expedition were described as only wearing a cloth uniform with a white turban/bandana.

D1. Antiquated lamellar armor from the Northern Song military manual Wujing Zongyao. Late Ming lamellar would be tailored in a waistcoat or surcoat fashion.

D2/D3. Two piece armors paired with pauldrons. Using period artwork as a guideline Ming soldiers would largely been equipped with a single piece surcoat armor. The earliest archeological reference I could find of brigandine shoulder armor consists of a suit of armor that belonged to a Datong garrison arquebusier officer(Zhao Yong) dating towards the reign of the Chongzhen Emperor(1629-1644).

D4. While a two piece armor configuration is certainly plausible,mounted infantry/cavalry wore a manica esque armguard. Moreover,diagonal rivet orientation were meant for ceremonial suits of brigandine indicating the absence of interior platelets.

Wansui, I would not argue that at all. If you don't read Chinese or Korean (like me) and Bradfords book is the only one you can find at all with Imjin scenarios, he suddenly becomes the subject matter expert and your best friend.

I don't mean to disparage the tremendous amount of information contained within the book. From a wargaming perspective the background information,scenarios and rulesets prove immensely useful for the time period. From my point of view there are some issues with the armors and flags in need a of revamp.

I hope you are correct about 28mm Ming. All my favorite battles from this conflict involve both the Ming and Koreans.

I share your enthusiasm,let's just say my research wasn't for naught! :)

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP10 Aug 2018 2:10 p.m. PST

"B3 and C2 are movie props"

Lol, that's hilarious.

"let's just say my research wasn't for naught!"

SWEET! I Trully look forward to those. And not that I'm looking a gift horse in the mouth, but have you given any thought to 28mm Jurchen as well?

I always thought Kato's campaign against them would be a fun game (not to mention border raids between Koreans and Jurchen!).

Obviously Jurchen are much more easily proxied than Ming are so I will be plenty happy to see your Ming. Cheers for taking on a much needed topic ;-)

Wansui10 Aug 2018 3:05 p.m. PST

I wouldn't be the person to ask,my responsibility is strictly related to the historical aspect of the project. I would imagine any further developments will depend on how well the Ming preform.

That being said I hope to wargame this interesting conflict as I have a sizeable collection of Sengoku era Japanese and Koreans.

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP15 Aug 2018 5:01 a.m. PST

I also am working on my Japanese and Korean armies and look forward to seeing some 28mm Ming made. Is this the same work as Clibnarium on LAF?

Wansui15 Aug 2018 11:27 a.m. PST

Is this the same work as Clibnarium on LAF?

Indeed. Clibinarium is a good friend of mine whom I had the pleasure assisting throughout the years. Rest assured the project will come to fruition.

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP16 Aug 2018 8:27 a.m. PST

That's what I expected. I'm in no rush as my Japanese army still needs basing and my Koreans are just starting. So I'm a bit off my first Imjin War game. Keep us informed on the progress, please.

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