"Chassuer a Cheval Uniform Q" Topic

My unfortunate limited resource information has not made it clear to this.
I am currently finishing Jacquinot's Lt Cavalry Brigade for the April 1809 Campaign. The formation included 1st regiment, 2nd regiment and 12th regiment CaC.
My issue is the elite company's color of the busby bag for the 1st vs the 2nd distinctive's.
I understand both had red facing scheme with the 2nd having green color and turnbacks with the red piping instead.
Google has not determined with a solid backing of sources or I have had bad choices in description to get an effective search result.
All support is appreciated in advance
MG

Someone must have copies of the Histoire and Collections two volumes on the C a Cheval. Surely in there, but sorry I do not have them in my collection.

I have the publications to which Deadhead refers. It shows that both the 1st and 2nd Chasseurs a Cheval had red bags on their colpacks. As a matter of interest, the 12th also had red bags.

(P.S. There are three volumes.)

MG,

I found a portrait of a marchel de logis from the 2e Chasseurs a cheval. He has a red bag. If I remember correctly the 2e elite company had a green tipped red plume shown in mid 1800's from Historie & Collection book. I will see if I can find a pic.

I know the color looks orangish, but I believe that is due to fading.

Michael

Well done Artilleryman….and MC.

I have slowly forgiven the former for leading me down the Dark Side.

His innocent suggestion that Brigade Games Miniatures new C a Chev release could be Garde Chasseurs or even Artillery a Cheval de la G Imp…….I am nearly finished both.

But, to quote a certain band "What a Long Strange Trip It's Been"

Once the idea was planted I was lying awake nights, thinking about how to do it. I do need to get out more…

I have no idea why duplicated! Apologies

Thanks Guys!

Deadhead, I would like to see the finished articles.

So would Mrs Deadhead, as she has pointed out more than once in the last few days.

But these have to be really good.

For what it is worth here is a chart from Charmy's "Splendeur des Uniformes de Napoleon – tome 1"

However I cannot certify this is 100 per cent accurate…..

Is Charmy correct? The plume seem upside down or am I wrong?

1st CaC
link
2nd CaC
link

The Charmy illustration if very puzzling, but could allow us to do some bizarre Imaginations Napoleonics.

The chart does say "Officiers" above the Colpak illustrations. I wonder is all the white plumes on the elites suggest the Colonel of the regiment, or some other field grade officer. My set of Rousselots show that elites had the bag in the facing color of the regiment, so not sure why so many show green bags. It looks like Charmy has the second regiment of each color type – when the uniform collar would have been dark green.

By the way, the 12th was one of the 3 regiments faced "cramois," or crimson, and should have had a crimson colpak bag. I seem to recall a Hourtoulle plate of the 10th Chassuers, and the 3rd Hussars at Jena, and the 10th trumpeter was shown with crimson, and also NO elite "hair brush" epaulettes.

Years ago, with no good line chasseurs to paint, I started to convert 6 Willie 30mm Prussian Napoleonic Hussars (whthout pelisse) to the 5th French Chasseurs a cheval, but could not find how long they wore a yellow shako in the center companies. I chose to use a Stadden hussar head, painted the body yellow with top and bottom leather bands black. That is what I (pretend to) see in this illustration! En avant, mes braves avec shako jaune!

The 5th has buff belting, at some point tried to ride "buckskins" or claybank colored horses, and was heavily involved in the Peninsular War.

By the way, the 17th and 18th chasseurs were "vacant" regiments – never formed in the time of the Napoleonic Shako, so this may an illustration of a proposed pattern for the regiments.

Gdep

Throwback, I can't resist. Like GdP states…

As they say, Garbage In, Garbage Out.
Has always applied.
The artist, like 'Italian' plates and some near contemporary colorists, has made stuff up!
Nothing can be relied upon in this effort- the 17th and 18th Chasseurs DID NOT EXIST!

Red (or scarlet depending upon you know what) IS the colour distinctive for primary elites troops- especially those who represent that Company- why would they except in rare instances of mind-numbing madness, change from that?

Just because a units 'facing' colour is such and such, did not alter the fact that distinctives were still very much applied in common as expected 95% of the time, if not to regulation then to 'conform'. Yes the 5th continued to wear the early hussar tapered shako with flamme (wing- wrapped or loose) later then a most, buff instead of whitened equipment and others etc. Their breeches also chamois, unbleeched. There's that famous painting of them skirmishing eh?

White plumes, senior officers or at most regimental staff. Later regulations determined this, probably based on common practice.

Facing coloured accoutrements? Rarely. Some Dragoons substituted white for red epaulettes for their elite company and sapeurs; their mixture of plumes and the colours used bewildering in variety, given 30 regiments no wonder.

And so, on the matter of accuracy- given the 17e and 18e Chasseurs numbers were vacant since 1794 [*1] due to the 'suppression' of the Belgian corps from which they were created, that thankfully leaves the 16e [*2] as the only regiment with sky-blue facings, for my models in 4e Corps Division of Light Cavalry- and happily Rousellot attributes the 16e with a sky-blue flamme on the colpack. Thereby confirming another exception to the norm.

Regards
davew

*[1] And given the acutely aware administration and 'strictness' to conform, why did successive governments leave gaps in otherwise linear regularity??
[2] The 16e were reformed of several mounted corps from Norman Brittany and not Belgian as some confused sites have postulate (Henry Choppin La Cavalerie Francaise).
_____

Patrice Courcelle did a couple of fine Wagram Paintings depicting the 1e Chasseurs a Cheval. The Elites and the officers have Red bags. The pictures can be found here>

link

I don't believe that those two paintings of the 1st Chasseurs a Cheval are by Courcelle. They are pictured in the book Soldiers and Uniforms of Napoleonic Wars by Francois-Hourtoulle with illustrations by Jack Girbal and Patrice Courcelle. The subject illustrations are on pages 107 and 108.

Unfortunately, I cannot find a signature on the paintings by either artist, but the style is Girbal, not Courcelle. They may have been completed or redone by Courcelle, but the original work is by all appearances Girbal.

The four watercolors at the top of the link are by Herbert Knotel and are pictured in Napoleonic Uniforms, Volume I by Col John Elting. They are Plates 2, 3, 4, and 5; pages 233-236.

Indeed there are originals by Girbral but 'tweaked' by Courcelle. I have the book in question and also original pictures of one or two of the illustrations in said book.

link

I posted this too on the other site.

link

those two plates were painted by Courcelle, no tweaking at all, he did this after Girbal had died – you find two Girbal plates about the 10th Chasseurs à Cheval in Spain.

And you know that how? Or are you posting incorrect information?

A common theme with Girbal was his love for rather large plumes that adorned his illustrations. The Book Soldiers and Uniforms of the Napoleonic Wars Courcelle's own work are signed as are Girbal's But those that have no signature probably aren't wholly Gibral or Courcelle's.

I refer to plates 76 and 77 – here Dr. Hourtoulle provides details about the death of Jack Girbal – plate 76 – was his last plate, see text – Hourtoulle painted plate 77 by himself, all those following plates were painted by Patrice Courcelle who continued the work and Hourtoulle was employing him, it is not just the 1er Chasseurs à Cheval, but also about French heavy cavalry and a series of plates about the Westphalian army

If you go through the paintings in the book, Girbal signed 79 of them, Courcelle 12, Hourtoulle (possibly) 1, and 10 of them have discernable signature.

The overwhelming majority of the paintings are by Girbal, not Courcelle. And the general styles of the two are different.