"Let's try again: is 20mm dead?" Topic

As many of you know , my cousin Double G and I are big 20mm/72-76th scale guys. With a couple of exceptions there has been a real slowdown in new offerings.

Is the scale dead? Dormant? Thoughts?

No. My primary scale. Great selection in plastic and metal (WWII).

I collect mostly 20mm figures, and I'm not sure that I agree with the premise that production is slowing down. Might it be that what is being produced fall outside your areas of interest. I am not particularly interested in ancient Koreans or Chinese, but I see eight new sets released this month at PSR.

Hey Joe!! Do you worry about the slowdown of new product?

By the way, my primary collections are NWF and Dark Ages figures. The latter have seen some nice recent additions.

And Strelets has all those cool new ACW figs.

Double G and I were discussing and I thought I'd put it to the TMP "Brain Trust".

I don't know anyone who games with 20mm figures. Its either 28mm or 15mm.

For historicals, I wonder if it suffers the fate that metals do – once I have my 30 battalions of French Line Infantry – I'm not jonesing to buy more.

My local club games WW2 in 20mm. The main problem is the collections are huge at this point. It takes a really exceptional new release to bump kickstarter or new fantasy figs off the shopping list.

Nope..been hiring people to print things for me. Khurasan might drop some 20mm scifi soon. There are big 15-18mm figs that work. Just takes some digging if Fantasy and Scifi are your thing.

Milhouse: no, it's obviously period dependent / specific. In WWII just to name a few (recently) you have Adler releasing a steady stream of British Infantry and US Airborne, AB – Russians, EWM – several early war sets, Newline, etc. Italeri and Revell keep releasing plastic sets.

So, no, I'm not worried!

So do you think 20mm is more a modeler/collector scale vs a gaming scale?

I used to game WW2 in 20mm, but I'm older & needed larger figs to paint well! Plus WW2 was the only period we gamed in 20mm. But Damn!I've seen some downright BEAUTIFUL 20mm stuff over the past few years & just days ago right here onTMP. So my advice would be, if YOU game WW2 in 20mm, REJOICE in all the beauty there is to behold in that size right now & who the hell cares about what others are playing with! Just MHO…

+1 Ceterman, vision ain't what it used to be! 28mm is now my size of choice!

No. Its not as good as in golden 2005-2009 but its better than XX century. Here is analaysis of only plastic sets:

link

In metal in this year was produced many great sets by Elhiem, Adler, Early War miniatures and so on.

I am doing all my historical in 1:72/20 mm.

"So do you think 20mm is more a modeler/collector scale vs a gaming scale?"

It can easily be both depending on the individual and how they approach it; and that can be applied to almost any scale.

Ceterman: +1

Except for obscure items I'd say 20mm WW2 has been pretty well blanketed by manufacturers.

I had got rid of my 20mm stuff, when What a Tanker came along, and the guy running it uses…20mm!
I have since been rebuilding my stocks…at least at a consistent 1/76!

Tough to find an M18 other than resin.

Yeah, I have no intention of switching . Just curious who else is out there

I do WWII and Vietnam in 20mm. Great size for aircraft and armor kits. But most of my 20mm armor are resin, not plastic kits.

I have no intention of switching. 15mm is too small and 28mm is too big. 20mm is perfect for the one figure equals one man games I play with two Hour Wargames' rules Nuts! and FNG.

Tom

I have 20mm for WW1, SCW, and some WW2 (Pacific and Crete). I may expand my WW2 Holdings but that would be for skirmish type gaming (BA, CoC) only.

Well I hope not as Combat Command is built for 20mm (though you can play it in 15mm).

Just ran a game at Historicon in 20mm, Hannut – had plenty of players and a nice surge in sales after con.

20mm got a bit swamped by Flames 15s but we seem to be making a nice come back (at least in WWII) with Combat Command at least a small part of that resurgence.

Thomas J. Thomas
Fame & Glory Games

As mentioned, I collect 20mm; I've got Napoleonics, ACW, FPW and WWII. I am all full up on WWII, same with ACW, buy odds and ends for Napoleonics.

I have 4,000 ACW, 10,000 Napoleonics, 2,000 FPW and 5,000 WWII figures.

All of my figures are metal, no plastics.

I buy from Hagen in Germany, Uwe always rolls out interesting new items in 20mm. I started FPW about a year and a half ago.

A group of collectors in Germany are rolling out a 1859 series for a huge diorama they are planning, I am ALL IN on these figures, specifically the French, Prussians for FPW will be added later.

The masters shown so far are stunning, Schilling in Germany will be the retailer, can't wait for these to be rolled out.

Not at all, the vast majority of my figures are 20mm plastic. I've got armies for Romans, Celts, Vikings, Crusades, WW2. This evening we'll be playing a game of Black Ops in 20mm.

We do most of our WWII and our Spanish Civil War games in 20mm scale. We have the minis, the tanks, and the scenery in that scale. It fits the table well, with enough room for our armor to roll around. That said, we also play 28mm WWII as well. I find 15mm a bit too small to see the weapons on the soldiers etc. because my eyes aren't what they used to be.

I'm doing three smallish forces--Napoleonics, WWII and WOTR--just enough for a friend and I to play on a 3x3 table. They're visible, inexpensive and durable without taking up a lot of space. Everything I need has been made, but availability isn't always what I might wish. That is, I'll be looking through web sites tomorrow for a box or two I've failed to find at Historicon or Cold Wars.

But if I'd been looking for 15mm, I wouldn't even have tried the conventions.

All my WWII is in 20mm. I've been painting it for 30 years and it too late to stop now,

By the way, if you are looking for a nice M18, check out Early War Miniatures. I just painted up three of them from there and they are glorious, the hull is thier polymer resin, very detailed and durable, the torrent is metal, Highly recommended.

Early War Miniatures is a relatively new company making all kinds of good 20mm stuff. If you include 1/72nd scale plastic figures as 20mm then we have had at least 40+ new figures sets so far this year and Strelets have announced at least a dozen new artillery sets for ACW to WWII.

Fidelis Models still has a few Battlefield Miniatures left in stock. link

Also the latest rumor is that Valiant Miniatures is planning on 20mm figures, but I can't confirm that.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

There are some images of painted 20mm Valiant Germans here along with a size comparison image.

link

They look good.

Lots of new stuff coming from Newline Designs in all sorts of periods and very nice they are
link
Never understood why wargaming moved away from 20mm myself.
L

Slowed down according to the annual production figures at PSR* but there´s loads of sets in metal and resin that aren´t listed at PSR…such as from Hagen.
Also, depends on the period gamed/collected.
* 2018 still has a bit to go :-)

PS…Strelets have just released 15 new sets
- M110 Spartacus Army Before Battle
- M123 Imperial British Camel Corps Dismounted
- M131 Australian Camel Corps Dismounted
- M132 8th Army Heavy Weapons Squad
- 158 Confederates Skirmishing
- 159 US Infantry Firing
- 165 British Camel Corps
- 166 Australian Camel Corps
- 167 Turkish Camel Corps
- 170 Old Guard Standing at Ease
- 171 Old Guard Standing at Attention
- 172 Arab Uprising Arab Camel Riders
- 178 Pickett's Charge 3 Gettisburg
- 179 Union Infantry in Attack 3 Gettisburg
- 184 French Line Infantry Standing at Attention

I´m not sure how PSR does it´s annual production figures but, if this lot gets added, that would make 48 plastic sets this year…and around about September this year, strelets aim to release another Batch of 10 plus sets.

The only scale for WW2 and Cold War IMHO, Elhiem have hove started releasing 3D printed vehicles, Wartime has a heap of stuff in the pipeline, plus AB has started the desert now, so much kit and so little time

I wonder if 20mm metal figure sales have reduced due to the wider ranges of 1/72 plastic figures available these days?

I have a maasive collection of 1:72 plastic figures painted over the last 50 years. Mostly Napoleonic (Peninsula and Waterloo) but more recently Jacobite Rebellion. I also have lots of unpainted figures to make several Roman era armies and a pair of Zulu War armies (the latter to replace my really old set-up). I just have a small bit of Jacobite Rebellion to finish off, then I will start on my Roman era set-up.

Many of these can be seen on my website:

rodwargaming.wordpress.com

Rod

Wonder where that thought came from.

I have seen a constant stream of goodness coming from Leon at Adler with his 20mm WW2 ranges, and AB have continued to produce new stuff. In plastic, WW2 remains a very popular scale per PSR.

Interesting discussion

There are rule sets created with 20mm in mind – Command Decision already mentioned, but also the popular Battlegroup rules, a set supported by the Plastic Soldier Company and an extensive range of figures, vehicles and guns in 20mm. Rapid Fire appears to be played primarily in 20mm and has an active online presence. What a Tanker appears to be popular in 20mm, amongst other scales. My group play Chain of Command in 20mm, although admittedly 28mm seems to be the primary scale.

You can get just about any WWII tank or gun in the scale in plastic, resin or metal from mainstream plastic manufacturers like Revell and Italeri, through to smaller manufacturers like Milicast and Early War Miniatures. Similarly figures cover all nationalities including smaller nations like the Dutch and Romanians.

Warlord have been incredibly successful and their very active and well funded marketing have given them a huge presence in the gaming market, so no surprise 28mm is now a very popular scale and highly visible. The same way Battlefront supports Flames of War and it's range of 15mm, but 20mm seems alive and well to me, it just flies a bit under the radar without a single manufacturer flexing its marketing muscles to ensure a high visibility.

I know a boatload of 20mm wargamers, mostly WWII but some post WWII and older ACW types. Since some of these guys went over to 28mm WWII and then returned to 20mm, saying there is a greater selection of troops, equipment, and terrain, at more affordable prices, in 20mm, I think 20mm gaming is actually in a good place.

Just in WWII metal figures… AB, Adler, Foundry, Elheim, Force20, EWM, Combat, Wartime, Kelly's, PSC Metals, Britannia, and so on. Now throw in plastics. Equipment and terrain in plastic, metal, resin, and who knows what else with the adoption and evolution of 3D printing; yep, its all good.

I know of several people who's preference is 20mm but game in 28mm because they can find opponents. They actually prefer the look of 20mm, as a 6x4 table in 28mm makes for a very crowded battlefield. I have to agree. 15mm probably looks even better, but that's making things a little too small for these ageing eyes!

Tactical Painter:

Had noted similar problem – when people came to game stores they say either 15mm (Flames) or later 28mm (Bolt). So started Combat Command as a general "common language" game for 20mm. It seems to have helped as now people see 20mm being played in stores and cons. Has a balancing system so two people can just show up with armies and play a game. Has brought plenty of 20s out of the cloest and even sparked some new painting.

It helps to have a common game so that when two 20s players meet they have a way to play even if they latter move on to alternative games. Helps a lot in the quest for opponents.

Thomas J. Thomas
Fame & Glory Games

1/72 figures are a FRACTION of the outrageous cost of 28mm.

28mm figure users always said theirs looked better because of the more "round" moulding, but with makers like Caesar using 3 piece moulds and Zvezda, Pegasus, PSC (Plastic Soldier Company) and others using multiple parts for figures they look JUST as good!

It is FAR easier to paint 1/72 figures, as well.

In fact, it is so inexpensive, you can easily afford BOTH armies and then not worry if an opponent has the right scale figures, they can just use yours!

You can even get people to play who have no miniatures as you have the whole game!

(imagine if you had to play Monopoly or any other board game, only with people who had the "rest" of the game?!)

I have exclusively 1:72 armies, I will game in any scale or size, but I just own the one true scale.

Never dead, just bubbling along as always

I play quite a bit of Chain of Command and have switched to 20mm which I think looks and works great. I had returned to WWII in 28mm about 10 years ago using Disposable Heroes and later Chain of Command, but when using armor on a 9x5 or 6x4 it didn't look or feel right.

Then about four years ago, I was thinking of moving to 20mm (I had a bunch of 15mm already but as I looked at them, I knew my eyes were not going to let me paint those!). I then went to look at the ABs at the Eureka stand and was sold -- I think they are nicer than most 28s! And there are a lot of choices for vehicles in plastic like PSC, Armourfast, and many others as well as a variety of resin and metal kits.

As to new releases, there has been a steady tream to keep me busy. I have picked up the new AB Russians, DAK, and 8th Army, and will be ordering some of the beautiful Adler miniatures as well (oh, how I wish the US Paratroopers were in the earlier uniform…). So my lead pile is increasing at a solid rate!

The one exception for me is that I play SCW in 28mm. Since there are fewer (and smaller) AFVs (assuming Tiznoas count), they seem to work well enough on a smaller table… and the Empress figures are too lovely to pass up.

Is 20mm dead?. I sincerely hope not or I'm sunk.

Minitron makes a fantastic line of Spanish Civil War for 20mm.

Considering expanding Combat Command to cover SCW just to be able to use this line of figures.

Thomas J. Thomas
Fame & Glory Games

We are all 20mm fans here but I did notice at Historicon , only 4% of games were in that scale. I get Horse and Musket is going to be a lot of 15s. I don't get why WW2 has gone 28mm. FoW created 15mm market for WW2 But still….

As I said in a similar thread, I cannot understand why gamers moved from 20mm in the first place. But in answer to your question, no it's alive and well.

I'm actually moving towards 20mm/old school small 25s for everything as my eyesight gradually gives up the ghost and to standardise my scenery. I'm keeping my 18mm Blue Moon ACW, though – near enough is near enough!

the switch to 20mm has probably been driven by bolt action and chain of command. perhaps switching people from the fantasy 28mm realm to historical. theres not much in 20mm 1/72 wwii that vant be found. i have thousands of figures and over a 1000 vehicles. this is the 20mm wwii board what ate you worried about? i think some people have a hard time wrapping their head around changng the scale between 28 and 20.