"Yekaterinoslav cuirassiers banners from Peter I" Topic

In my research of the Russian cuirassier flags for the 1812 campaign, I have come across two versions/descriptions of this unit and possibly the Gloukhow regt.
The main difference is the metal color of the star or sun that the eagle points too.
The latest is from source in a recent TMP post which shows it as a gold one and has put doubt to what I had at the time.

My original ( can't find the source at the moment) had a silver color round body with the central cross in gold.
So which one is the most correct?
Can this be indicated with t a solid source to back it up?

Thank you for all replies in advance.
MG

Wise's "Flags of the Napoleonic Wars(2)" notes, "The eagle, radiance, cyphers and crowns were gold for all regiments; the braid, corner wreaths, and border decoration being gold for all regiments except…which had silver" The Glukhov and Yekaterinoslav regiments are in the exceptions list. Each regiment had one white, and four colored standards per regiment (except Kiev and Kharkov dragoons). White standards had a white field and green corner medallions, and the colored, green fields and white corner medallions.

I was noodling around and ran into this from Viskovatov: "Yekaterinoslav Cuirassiers: (9 January, 1798) 5 Standards: one with a white field with sky blue corners; the rest with an orange field with sky blue corners silver embroidery and fringe."

This sounds more likely than Wise.

In fact, it has been established, that it is V. who generalised too much.

Terry Wise is indeed; he exactly described the variations depicted between regiments, the variation being NOT the central embroidery at all, which remained gold thus with more gold external to them or the regimental differences, in silver.
d

Wise seems to conflate the Model 1797 standards with the Model 1803.
But for both Glukhov & Yekaterinoslav cuirassiers : golden cross and radiance, silver embroidery and fringe

Yekaterinoslav cuirassiers model 1797 – received 9.I.1798

Glukhov cuirassiers model 1797 – received 5.II.1798

The designs for Model 1800 and 1803 and 1803 modification 1804 are more unclear.
For Astrakhan, havng a survivor helps.

Astrakhan cuirassiers (formed in 1811) model 1800/1803 (?) – received 20.IX.1811
museum

reconstruction Model 1800

Conflate what?

If you look at the OP statements he's trying to say V. was right, had read Wise who gave an alternate and up to date review, then discarded latter.
Subsequent historians with Russian source ability and language, have confirmed THE WISE, as you yourself show in the repeat illustration.

The OPs quest to 'prove' a sliver embroidery decoration was false!

>>The designs for Model…

But as we know, no such 'designs' were issued unless there was a need, otherwise the previous 'in stock' 1797 were used.

After all they reduced regiments and squadrons didn't they, so spare flags abounded…

Wholesale issue would only begin to replace losses after the end of 1807 campaign I reckon, since the 'new' 1806 St.Georges [as an example] have few examples, and weren't even gifted after decree said so.

The holy adherence to 'sources' that over time have proven to be incorrect, conjectural or suspect and misinterpretations themselves is an ideological nightmare in even just 220 years!

cheers d

@d

I don't hve the work by Wise. I was going by the post where his name arose, assuming it correctly reflected Wise. By the way, the part directly quoted from Wise could be a verbatim translation from Zweguintzow's L'Armée Russe (vol. 3), Paris, édition de l'auteur, 1970.

1. "The eagle, radiance, cyphers and crowns were gold for all regiments; the braid, corner wreaths, and border decoration being gold for all regiments except …which had silver. The Glukhov and Yekaterinoslav regiments are in the exceptions list"
Refers to Model 1797 – issued in Paul's reign

2. "Each regiment had one white, and four colored standards per regiment (except Kiev and Kharkov dragoons). White standards had a white field and green corner medallions, and the colored, green fields and white corner medallions."
Refers to Model 1800/1803/1803mod1804 – issued in Alexander's reign.

3. Kiev (then) cuirassiers had a standard issue of Model 1797 received on 23 September 1798 : fawn ovals on the white standard, purple ovals on the straw-yellow color standards, silver edging. Granted 3 green color Saint George Model 1803 standards on 15 September 1813 for the Katzbach, which were delivered in 1815 (3 color standards being turned in)

4. Kharkov (then) cuirassiers had a standard issue of Model 1797 received on 8 February 1798 : rose ovals on the white standard, dark-red ovals on the rose color standards, silver edging. Esact same grant/issue of Saint George standards as for Kiev.

I deemed running items 1-4 together as "seems to conflate". Maybe by the poster, not Wise. But I think my items 1-4 better separate the details, without any conflating.

Although Viskovatov and Zweguintzow are perhaps the standard works on Russian flags and standards, for the era of Paul they both rely heavily on Prince Dolgoruky's 1799 work, Хроника Россійской Императорской Арміи. Alexander's reign is mostly based on the Полного собрания законов Российской империи. You will want to look at Tomes 26-34 and the referenced Штаты военно-сухопутные in Tome 43, part 2
See : link
And from Gabaev :
--- Документ о русских знаменах и прочих войсковых регалиях начала XIX века: 1803-1815 гг.
--- Русские знамена, 1796-1912 гг.
link
--- Краткий очерк развития образца русских знамен и штандартов в XIX веке
link

Nicely illustrated and in English is :
Russian Infantry Flags of the Napoleonic Wars
Les Prince and Laurence Spring
Partizan Press 2016
"Reproduction of these flag illustrations ***is*** only permitted for personal non- commercial use."

Of course there are exceptions, details and further discussion of local/regional museums' holdings by more modern researchers. Most of these get some reference or mention in the various fora at reenactor.ru – from there you can chase down publications of interest.
Also, vexillographia.ru will usually highlight any open issue or question.

"no such 'designs' were issued unless there was a need" – I agree.

"After all they reduced regiments and squadrons didn't they, so spare flags abounded"
Not really. The number of regiments steadily increased from 1797. It was mostly 5 or 6 squadrons (10 or 12 for light cavalry in 2 "battalions"), 1 standard per squadron, throughout the period. Spares were not supposed to be retained in the unit, but returned to arsenals. New reigments generally got new standards (but there may have been interim use of old standards from parent formations contributing to a new unit – it happened in the infantry in a few rare cases). Lost standards were not replaced until some act of bravery or excellence permitted issue of a new standard. A "plain color" (assumedly gray or similar, undyed material, such as off-cuts from cloth for non-combattant uniforms) without symbols, fringes, etc. was permitted in cases of lost standards, for tactical use. I do not know if any unit actually used such a "shame" standard.

"Wholesale issue would only begin" …. really only after the peace and true complete "re-flagging" did not occur until 1833.

"The holy adherence to 'sources' that over time have proven to be incorrect, conjectural or suspect and misinterpretations themselves is an ideological nightmare in even just 220 years!"
I try very very hard to avoid this. Especially any "ideology". I am not a Russian, and generally have no political opinions at all. I have never joined a political party nor even voted in any election. I am a retired naval engineering officer. I rate my skills in the study of history (for which I have long interest but little academic training), the painting of figures and winnning in games at best as "senior NCO-level" – hence "Michman".
Also, English is not my native language – so let me please request your indulgence (as "Tango" seems to do) if I mangle your native tongue so badly as to mislead you as to my meaning.

Hey again michman-

I read and have taken my time to reflect after a difficult two weeks of personal and health issues. Not involved with the virus craze but annoying enough to disrupt my habits and hobby work.

I can't take back what I believe and what I put down, like you, an amateur historian with a deep passion to 'know' what is right or wrong.

"After all they reduced regiments and squadrons didn't they, so spare flags abounded"
Not really. The number of regiments steadily increased

In using 'spare' I was ultimately referencing some comments or claims I read, originally translated Russian but I may be mistaken, that said something like~ "we sent them replacements from the 'state/ Hermitage store?"

if I mangle your native tongue

Some would maintain I can't even use English myself!
Still at 68/ 100 it was the best subject I got in School Certificate (others were all 'sciences') nearly 50 years ago. So I am a left brain mortal full of defects.
I wasn't making any personal attacks and if in fun, maybe not clear.

I've only become involved in Russian details because I chose to 're-arrange' my main enemy gaming. I'd selected soley to model 25 years ago the Austrians @Austerlitz. The more I studied the more I came to realise that NOT representing the truly 'allied' enemy was a partial mistake.

So I amend my criteria, now being selective about involving/ creating 'some' Russian corps and commands, where these were directly involved with the Austrian combatants- starting with some of Dhokturovs 1st Corps (Kienmayers Avant-Garde); some of Miloradovichs 4th Corps (Brigade: Maj. Gen. Repninsky). With one exception, no Leib-Garde, perhaps I will do last of all the Garde-Jaeger battalion.

All the best,
~dave

Hey again to you, Dave.

I hope your health is fully restored. We are, it appears, very nearly the same age. My daughter insisted I have an operation on my leg to remove the last of the shapnel that was imbedded there 40 years ago, replace some parts with modern materials, etc., etc. Is it me, or all the doctors now young people from foreign countries ?
:-)

"we sent them replacements from the 'state/ Hermitage store?"
Applies quite well to the Army heavy infantry, as opposed to the cavalry. Each heavy infantry regiment did turn in 4 "spare" color flags when the estalishment went from 1 flag per company to 2 flags per battalion early in Alexander's reign. If they lost a flag without fault, or it wore out, or if they lost a flag with fault and then regained their honor with a act worthy of distinction, a regiment could be re-issued a "spare".

Do you intend do to this list, as for Austerlitz ?

1st Column Lt. Gen. Dokhturov
Brigade Maj. Gen. Miller-3
--- 3/ 5th Jäger regiment
--- 3/ 7th Jäger regiment
--- 1 company from 2/ 2nd Pioneer regiment
--- half of Don Cossack Denisov-14 regiment
Brigade Maj. Gen. Leviz
--- 1/, 2/, 3/ New Ingermanland Musketeer regiment
--- 1/, 2+3/ Yaroslavl Musketeer regiment
Brigade Maj. Gen. Liders
--- 1/, 2/, 3/ Vladimir Musketeer regiment
--- 1/, 2/, 3/ Bryansk Musketeer regiment
Brigade Maj. Gen. Prince Urusov-1
--- 1/, 2/, 3/ Kiev Grenadier regiment
--- 1/, 2/, 3/ Moscow Musketeer regiment
--- 1/, 2/, 3/ Vyatka Musketeer regiment
&
Brigade Maj. Gen. Repninsky
--- 1/ Novgorod Musketeer regiment
--- 2/, 3/ Apsheron Musketeer regiment

Hallo…

Shrapnel? That's serious…! I bet you didn't get that at Mururoa Atoll? Or Rainbow Warrior! (joke, even if bad).
I only comment because my brain becomes tired as do my eyes and I can't concentrate for too long on modelling.

Your list, in part:-
Miller-3
Levis part (or maybe all later)
Repninsky
Under Kolowrath:
GM Wodniansky or as Duffy cites: Lt. Col. Monakhtin of Novgorod Musketeer Regt leading Avant-Garde.

The !st Column (Corps) because of the (Allied) assualt on Tellnitz and only there.
The 4th Column (Corps) because of the (French) assualt on Pratze by my Soult IV Corps.

As I say it [my modelling] is based around where the Austrians were, which when you look at was rather thinly spread compared to mass of Russian troops.

I'm using combinations of old Hinchliffe, CRM and Warg. Foundry plus some exotic Perry plastics; and in the last year reached out for some Eureka Miniatures who will make some fine (slightly modified and unique Russian units).

Take care and heal well..
regards
d *pain au chocolat*

"Rainbow Warrior"
I wish …. no, it was Operation Manta in Chad.

Here are your flags, I think ….

New-Ingermanland Musketeer regiment / Ново-Ингерманландскiй Мускетерскiй полкъ

Yaroslavl Musketeer regiment / Ярославскiй Мускетерскiй полкъ

Novgorod Musketeer regiment / Новгородскiй Мускетерскiй полкъ

Apsheron Musketeer regiment / Апшеронскiй Мускетерскiй полкъ

Thank you sir- i've been collecting data for some time but more is always welcome.

Others of course will equally benefit.

Frankly i like the simplicity of these model flags/ banners compared with later types.
And in pairs as I intend to recreate units, probbably even better!

Apologies [to others] for wandering from the s/m of OP,
regards d