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"Russian Cav Sqdn sword knots" Topic


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264 hits since 29 Jun 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Prof Pate30 Jun 2018 1:38 a.m. PST

Hi all

So I think I have the colours for sdqns 1-5 and then Red(?) for the sixth in the 1812 reorganisation.

But what colour was assigned to the depot Sqdn for the converged Cuirassier and Guard Regts.

Also where any other converged units formed?

Thanks

John

Prince of Essling30 Jun 2018 2:01 a.m. PST

From Viskavotov (translation courtesy of Mark Conrad):
Volume 11: see link

30 April 1802— Confirmation is given to a new table of uniforms, accoutrements, and weapons of Cuirassier regiments…………….the color of the swordknot tassel is according to squadron: in the 1st Squadron — white, in the 2nd—sky blue, in the 3rd—yellow, in the 4th—black, and in the 5th—green.

27 December 1812— The newly added squadrons to the establishments of Cuirassier regiments are ordered to have tassels and rings on their swordknots: 6th — red; 7th, Replacement [Zapasnyi] — white with a mixture of red (42).

Viskavotov – Volume 10A: see link
14 March 1812– Eight new Cavalry divisions were ordered to be formed from replacement and reserve squadrons:

9th, from the four replacement squadrons of: Chevalier Guards, L.-Gds. Horse, HIS MAJESTY'S Life-Cuirassiers, HER MAJESTY'S Life-Cuirassiers.
— — three ——————— — L.-Gds. Dragoons, Hussars, and Lancers.

1st Cav. Div. — — eight ——————— — — Riga, Yamburg, Kazan, and Nezhin Dragoons; Grodno Hussars; and Polish Lancers.

2nd Cav. Div. — — eight ——————— —— Pskov, Moscow, Kargopol, and Ingermanland Dragoons, and Yelisavetgrad and Izyum Hussars.

10th, — — eight ——————— — 3rd Cav. Div. — Courland, Orenburg, Siberia, and Irkutsk Dragoons, and Sumy and Mariupol Hussars.

4th Cav. Div. — — six ——————— —— Kharkov, Chernigov, Kiev, and New Russia Dragoons, and Pavlograd Hussars.

11th, — — four ——————— — 5th Cav. Div. — Akhtyrka Hussars and Lithuania Lancers.

6th Cav. Div. — — eight ——————— —— Starodub, Tver, Zhitomir, and Arzamas Dragoons; Aleksandriya Hussars; and Tatar Lancers.

12th, — — eight ——————— — 7th Cav. Div. — St.-Petersburg, Livonia, Severskii, and Kinburn Dragoons; Belorussia Hussars; and Volhynia Lancers.

8th Cav. Div. — — eight ——————— — — Smolensk, Pereyaslavl, Tiraspol, and Dorpat Dragoons; Olviopol Hussars; and Chuguev Lancers.

13th, — — four reserve squadrons of: Podgoshcha Depot.
four —————— — Staraya Russa —
four —————— — Kholm ——
four —————— — Toropets ——
four —————— — Yelna ——
four —————— — Roslavl ——

14th, — — six —————— — Novgorod Severskii Depot.
four —————— — Konotop Depot.
15th, from the four reserve squadrons of: Romny Depot.
four —————— — Akhtyrka ——
16th, — — four —————— — Chigrin ——
four —————— — Novomirgorod ——
four —————— — Yelisavetgrad ——
four —————— — Olviopol —— (140).

15 March 1812– All these eight divisions were designated as part of the Reserve Armies:
9th and 13th Divisions — to the 1st Reserve Army.
10th, 11th, and 14th ——— to the 2nd Reserve Army.
12th, 15th, and 16th ——— to the 3rd Reserve Observation Army.
Because of the war with France which was to begin soon, the formation of these three Armies did not take place, and the reserve squadrons, in a manner similar to the above-mentioned reserve battalions of the infantry, were step by step used to fill out Cavalry regiments (141).

Le Breton Inactive Member30 Jun 2018 5:41 a.m. PST

For swordknots :

See the comments by Mr. Gingerich at :
link

For cuirassiers, dragoons, horse-jδger (from 1813) and gendarmes (from 1815), I think this repartition, according to squadron, is correct (subject to Mr. Gingerich's reservations) : in the 1st Squadron white, in the 2nd sky blue, in the 3rd yellow, in the 4th black, in the 5th green, in the 6th (from 1813) red, in and the 7th Repacement squadron (from 1813) mixed red and white.

The hussars and uhlans are easier : of red Russian leather, with a similar tassel .

But, with regard to the converged units of 1812, there are other issues.

From 1810, a Replacement squadron was *any* center squadron – 2nd, 3rd or 4th squadron in a five squadron regiment. It varied by regiment. In light cavalry regiments of 10 squadrons, there were two Replacement squadrons, one center squadron from each battalion of the reigment (i.e. : one of 2nd, 3rd and 4th – plus – one of 7th, 8th or 9th).

You would have to go regiment by regiment to determine which squadrons were chosen by each regiment. Even then, there is a problem : despite instructions to identify squadrons by number, the habit persisted of referring to them by name of the official commander (or senior officer present, not necessarily the same man).

In 1813, with the new organization, the Repalcement squadron was fixed as the 7th. And all regiments (including the light cavalry) adopted the seven squadron organization. Also, there were no examples (that I know about) of these 7th squadrons acting as other than true depot squadrons – i.e., no converged units in the field.

From the Replacement squadrons, the (nominal) 9th through 12th cavalry divisons were formed. I will post what happened to them later.

==================

From 1811, at the recruit depots, there was a 6th Reserve squadron for *army* cuirassiers and dragoons. and an 11th Reserve squadron and a 12th Reserve squadron for *army* light cavalry regiments (note : not Guard …. see below). These were supposed to form the (nominal) 13th through 16th cavalry divisons. However, as noted in the Viskovatov, they were actually used piecemeal to shuttle recruits to the front until the implementation of the seven squadron orgnaization during 1813, by which the new 7th Replacement squadron took on the rτle of receiving and training recruits.

The guard cavalry *did* form 1 or 2 depot unist which took the field in late 1812 and 1813. Unlike the army cavalry, the guard depot was a depot for horses (not recruits, as the guard was mostly recruited by promotion from the army). I do not immediately recall the details, but if you find guard cavalry depot units *other than* the converged Replacement squadrons of early 1812, they are these small detachments from the horse depots, casernes and stud farms.

Le Breton Inactive Member30 Jun 2018 6:51 a.m. PST

The (nominal) 9th through 12th cavalry divisions were supposed to be formed in 1812 from the army and guard Replacement squadrons. Of these, only the 9th was clearly formed as a divsion, and it was split up at the beginiing of active operations.

9th Cavalry division
commander general-major prince Nikolay-Grigor'yevich Pepnin-Volkonskiy
senior adjudant captain Kargopol dragoons Ivan Semyonovich Mironov
adjudant lieutenant Izyum hussars Ivan Ivanovich Bedryaga
adjudant lieutenant Military Order cuirassiers Nikolay Vasil'yevich Rykov
--- compoased of 6 Combined regiments : 2 sent to Dinaburg fortress, 2 sent to Riga, 2 sent to the 1st Separate corps under graf Vitgenshteyn

10th Cavalry divison
commander ?
--- composed of 4 Combined regiments : 3 sent to Mozyr, 1 sent to baron Osten-Saken's Separate corps in the Ukraine

11th Cavalry division
commander general-major Aleksey Andreyevich Laskin
--- composed of 3 combined regiments : 2 sent to baron Osten-Saken's Separate corps in the Ukraine, 1 sent to graf Lambert's corps (3rd Reserve Observation army)

12th Cavalry division
no commander
--- composed of 4 Combined regiments : all 4 served as garrison forces at various locations in the Ukraine, then were sent to the Caucasus

There were also 10 Replacement squadrons not incorporated into Combined regiments. Of these, 5 were sent to the Crimea, 2 to Georgia, 1 to the Caucasus line and 2 to Finland.

Of the Combined regiments, the ones that saw combat in 1812 with the French were those of the 9th Cavalry divison, those sent to Mozyr and those sent to graf Lambert. The most engaged were those with Vitgenshteyn's 1st Separate corps. I think these were the ones the OP was asking about. These were as follows ….

1st division of the Combined Cuirassier regiment
commander guards colonel of the Life-Guard Horse Aleksey Andrainovich Protasov
adjudant guards cornet of the Chevalier Guards Grigoriy Aleksandrovich Okunev
--- Replacement squadron of the Chevalier Guards – guards cavalry staff-captain Mikhail Nikolayevich Avdulin-2
--- Replacement squadron of the Life-Guard Horse – guards cavalry captain Vladimir Karlovich Knorring-1

2nd division of the Combined Cuirassier regiment
commander guards colonel of the Chevalier Guards Ivan Zakhar'yeich Yershov
--- Replacement squadron of His Majesty's Life-cuirassiers – major Timofey Sabel'yevich Karskiy
--- Replacement squadron of Her Majesty's Life-cuirassiers – major Stepan Alekseyevich Semeyko
--- Replacement squadron of the Astrakhan cuirassiers * – lieutenant-colonel Fyodor-Vasil'yevich Gromov
* arrived 3 October and disbanded to provide replacements for the other two squadrons of the 2nd division

Combined Guards cavalry regiment
comander guards colonel of the Life-Hussars baron Adam Leont'yevich Bennigsen-2
replaced in July by guards colonel of the Life-Guard Dragoons Aleksandr Ivanovich Al'brekht
--- Repalcement squadron of Life-Guard Dragoons – guards captain Ksenofont Fyodorovich Kvitnitskiy
--- Repacement squadron of Life-Guard Uhlans – guards colonel Semyon Alekseyevich Volodimerov
--- Repalcement squadron of Life-Hussars – guards cavlary captain Nikolay Dmitriyevich Skobel'tsyn

Here was the one with graf Lambert :

Combined Cavalry regiment
commander (form 22 May) colonel of the Alexandria Hussars Pyotr Vasil'yevich Filip'yev
--- Replacement squadron of the 1st battalion of Alexandria Hussars – major Andrey Fyodorovich Rozen
--- Replacement squadron of the 2nd battalion of Alexandria Hussars – commander ?
--- Replacement squadron of the 1st battalion of Tatar Uhlans – major Krichinskiy-8
--- Replacement squadron of the 2nd battalion of Tatar Uhlans – commander ?


If someone wants more details on any of the other Combined regiments or the separate Replacement squadrons, just ask.

Prof Pate04 Jul 2018 1:29 p.m. PST

Thanks guys. Been AFK – not being rude.

Thanks

John

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