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"Heilsberg 1807: Little Russia or Ekaterinoslav Cuirassiers?" Topic


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656 hits since 25 Jun 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Spoercken26 Jun 2018 10:23 p.m. PST

Concerning the Russian OOB for Heilsberg 1807, I have read in one source that in Kozhin's Cuirassier Brigade there were "Little Russia (or Ekaterinoslav) Cuirassiers", an other source indicated "Ekaterinoslav (or Little Russia) Cuirassiers".

Does one know nowadays, with new sources maybe, which of the two regiments was there?

I know that both had orange facings, but they probably did not have the same standard… :-)

marshalGreg27 Jun 2018 4:17 a.m. PST

In a well researched article on Friedland, the author has Little Russia in Koshin's Brigade and Ekaterinslav in Lvov's brigade. :http://obscurebattles.blogspot.com/
The Little Russia regiment had green facings with the dark purple standard and that is also what I have them painted as in my collect for that unit, after much of my own research prior to building the unit (from solid sources I, unfortunately, not in a place right now to advise).
MG

Personal logo jeffreyw3 Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member27 Jun 2018 4:40 a.m. PST

Arnold has the Little Russia Cuirassiers with Kozhin, who was mortally wounded at Heilberg, btw. And, as Greg notes, their facings at this time were dark green.

In another note of possible interest, there's apparently a cut and past error with the Left Wing cavalry OOB in Hourtoulle's "from Eylau to Friedland," as a big chunk is missing.

Spoercken27 Jun 2018 4:58 a.m. PST

Thanks a lot, MG. I had always referred to the Heilsberg OOB on the napolun site.

Thanks also for the correction of green facings for the Little Russia regiment.

Cheers,
Peter

Spoercken27 Jun 2018 5:01 a.m. PST

Thanks, jeffreyw3. Napolun has "either Little Russia or Ekaterinoslav" in Kozhin's cuirassier brigade. Where does Arnold place the Ekaterinoslav regiment?
Peter

Greystreak27 Jun 2018 5:10 a.m. PST

Arnold places the Ekaterinoslav Cuirassiers in the Right Wing, north of the Alle River, first with 6th Division (Lvov), then Knorring's Cavalry. They are noted as 5 Squadrons in strength, and are brigaded with the Kiev Dragoons (5 Squadrons), and Tatar Uhlans (5 Squadrons). (p. 361)

Spoercken27 Jun 2018 5:32 a.m. PST

Thank you, Greystreak. I will need to buy Arnold's book.
Peter

Le Breton Inactive Member27 Jun 2018 6:50 a.m. PST

Von Lettow-Vorbeck places the "Little Russia" cuirassiers with Kozhin and the Yeketerinoslav cuirassiers L'vov's 6th division, per the return of 20 May (1 June) 1807. However, much of the 6th division was broken up and attached elsewhere for the battle. Kozhin (in the text, pages 278 et seq.) is described as leading only 1,000 men when he is killed – I think this was his own regiment (the cuirassiers of His Imperial Majesty) and the Military Order cuirassiers.
История войны 1806 и 1807 гг. Том IV. Прейсишь-Эйлау – Тильзит
Фон Леттов-Форбек Оскар
Варшава : Тип. окружного штаба, 1898
link

The "Little Russia" cuirassiers (Malorossiyskiy kirasirskiy polk) was under the command of their chief ("shef"), general-major baron Il'ya Mikhaylovich Duka (1768-1830), who was wounded by a sabre cut to his side during the battle and awarded the Prussian Order of the Red Eagle (1st class). The post of commander was vacant.

The Yekaterinoslav curassiers (Yekaterinoslavskiy kirasirskiy polk) was under their chief general-major Nikolay Vasil'yevich Kretov (1773-1839), who was awarded the Russian Order of Saint-Anna (1st class) and the Prussian Order of the Red Eagle (1st class). Their rather older commander was colonel Fyodor Fyodorovich Ryomer (Friedrich von R๖mer, 1750-1810).

If I had to guess, I would say that either both the "Little Russia" and Yekaterinoslav cuirassiers were under Kozhin, or – and I think it more likely – there was a second cuirassier brigade of the these two regiments under the senior officer, Kretov (who was, I think senior to Duka* – and Duka did not get a Russian decoration, unlike Kretov, for the battle, even though Duka was wounded).

* The service records for Kretov are confusing, as he had retired with promotion to major general, re-joined, entered His Majesty's Quartermaster Suite, and then transferred back to the Army – and his seniority dates were later adjusted in his favor)

The standards are easy ….

Yekaterinoslav cuirassiers :

picture

picture

"Little Russia" cuirassiers :

picture

picture

Spoercken27 Jun 2018 7:08 a.m. PST

Great information, thank you so much, Breton!

Personal logo jeffreyw3 Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member27 Jun 2018 7:13 a.m. PST

Thanks for the link, Breton

Le Breton Inactive Member27 Jun 2018 7:42 a.m. PST

Mikhailovsky-Danilevsky (in the Russian "standard work" on 1807) does not give a very detailed account. However, his maps *are* detailed. You can be pretty sure that each Russian cavalry symbol equals 1 regiment.

I think I see the Tatar Horse and Keiv dragoons detached from the 6th division to Gorchakov near redoubt No. 2.

I see Golitsyn depicted with 6 regiments near him, in reserve. This looks a lot like 4 cuirassier and 2 dragoon regiments (assumedly Korf's : Moscow and Pskov dragoons) to me. There are 4 more symbols in various places on the left of the battlefield which would account for the Polah Horse and 3 regiments of hussars also under Golitsyn.

Here is Mikhailovsky-Danilevsky's map :

picture

Spoercken27 Jun 2018 12:22 p.m. PST

Thank you very much, Breton, this map and your interpretation are very interesting! So, if I don't get you wrong, you say that probably the cuirassier regiments with Golitsyn would be all four, the Emperor, Military Order, Little Russia and Ekaterinoslav regiments?

Le Breton Inactive Member27 Jun 2018 4:05 p.m. PST

Spoercken,

Yes, that is my guess. And next to the two dragoon regiments. And from a game perspective, you certainly should beallowed to have the six regiments in 3 brigades of 2 regiments each. I would guess that this was historical also, as they actually were managed at the battle, but cannot guarantee it.

I would make it ….

general-lieutenant prince Dmitriy Vladimirovich Golitsyn (chief of the Military Order cuirassiers, 1771-1844)

general-major Sergey Alekseyevich Kozhin (chief of the His Majesty's Life cuirassiers, 1769-1807)
--- His Majesty's Life cuirassiers : 5 squadrons : "azure" facings : commander vacant, senior officer major Petr Ivanovich Slepchenkov (mortally wounded at Borodino, 1762-1812)
--- Military Order cuirassiers : 5 squadrons : "black" facings : commander colonel Karl Ivanovich Lindenbaum (1778-1824)

general-major Nikolay Vasil'yevich Kretov (chief of the Yekaterinoslav cuirassiers, 1773-1839)
--- Yekaterinoslav cuirassiers : 5 squadrons : "orange" facings : commander colonel Fyodor Fyodorovich Ryomer (Friedrich von R๖mer, 1750-1810)
--- "Little Russia" cuirassiers : 5 squadrons : "dark green" facings : chief general-major baron Il'ya Mikhaylovich Duka (1768-1830), commander vacant

general-major baron Fyodor Karlovich Korf (chief of the Pskov dragoons, Friedrich Georg von Korff, 1787-1823)
--- Pskov dragoons : 5 squadrons : "flame" facings : commander colonel Nikolay Vasil'yevich Vasil'chikov (1781-1849)
--- Moscow dragoons : 5 squadrons : "rose" facings : chief general-major Nikolay Alekseyevich Bezobrazov (likely absent due to illness *, 1770-1833), commander vacant, senior officer major Karl Fyodorovich Klik (from Finland, Carl Klick, ~1765? – ~1830?)

* Bezobrazov had 5 months more seniority in the rank of general-major than baron Korff, and so should have commanded the brigade if he had been present. However, he is not mentioned as being present at the battle (baron Korff is) and he retired from army due to illness later in the month of June.

=============

If you are into such things, you can go back and forth between the Von Lettow-Vorbeck report of 1 June (N.S.) that I linked, the ordre of battle in Arnold (or on the napolun website, which I think they cribbed from Arnold) that shows detachments from parent divisions, and the map from Mikhailovsky-Danilevsky (save it to your computer and zoom in close) and try to assign all the regiments to their symbols on the map.

The map labels are in Russian cursive, but they are all the names of commanders, "Gvardiya" (for the Guard) and "X. divisiya" (i.e. the Xth division).

Stoppage27 Jun 2018 4:48 p.m. PST

I wonder how the squadrons – in a brigade – were deployed?

Six squadrons up – with the two staff squadrons and two other squadrons in the second line?

OR

Four squadrons up – with four squadrons in the second line – the two staff and two other squadrons in the third line?

OR

???

Spoercken28 Jun 2018 12:29 a.m. PST

Breton, thank you so much, again! That's fabulous information.

I am not a gamer (maybe a bit of solo), more a builder of formations (if this makes sense) and historically very interested; I will paint a couple of Russian (and Prussian) batallions and squadrons of this battle, and others of the 1805-1807 campaigns.

Le Breton Inactive Member28 Jun 2018 4:10 a.m. PST

"more a builder of formations"
Understood. For me, I like the history, figure painting (very very poorly) and actual playing in equal measure. I am happy with any combination of them.
:-)

==================

For deployment :

The large 10-squadron light cavalry regiments were split into two, independent 5-squadron battalions.

A squadron always formed in two lines (like infantry ranks : 2x lines by ca. 50 files)

Two squadrons were a "division" – less used as tactical formation in the early period, but late period it was *very* common.

Regiments could be deployed on squadron frontage (most common), division frontage (more common late period) or regimental frontage.

If a regiment deployed on squadron frontage or division frontage, the remainder of the regiment could be directly to the rear or echelonned to the left rear or right rear.

Regiments of a brigade would typically be in the same formation, i.e. deployed on the same frontage. They would also typically form one behind another in echelon, although it was possible for them to form abreast of each other or directly behind each other. In general the regiment with greater seniority formed in front or to the right of the other regimetn(s) in the brigade.

Echelons could overlap a little – or be separated laterally.

Squadrons could be separated by only a small gap, the frontage of a section (1/4 of the squadron frontage, or the frontage of 2 sections (1/2 the squadron frontage).

Most common early period for heavy cavalry would be a brigade of two regiments in echelon (most senior in front), each depoyed on squadron frontage with the remaining squadrons directly behind with the separation between squadrons of a section's frontage. Such as ….


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And that looks much like what is shown on Mikhailovsky-Danilevsky's map for what I take to be 2 brigades of cuirassiers – with the brigade of dragoons shown to their right similarly deployed, but with the regiments abreast of each other.

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