""Nazi" saucer ban" Topic

They don't want to mislead unsuspecting kids into believing that it was possible with the technology available at the time:

link

Revell isn't the only company that makes something like this btw.

Another case of overreaction by the pc cops?

Toy company stops making a toy for whatever reason, big hairy deal.

Oh good grief. If a kid comes up to and says "The Nazis had a flying saucer— here's a model, " just say, "No, they didn't. That model is based on a famous post-war photography hoax. The "flying saucer" was actually the shade of a desk lamp. It's a popular concept in fiction, but it never really existed. It's kind of like something out of an Indiana Jones movie. Fun to pretend, but not real."
Why is it so hard just to correct the child's misunderstanding? Oh, no, we have to stop anyone from selling the product, even though both the manufacturer and the target market all know it's a JOKE, and it's easy enough to inform anyone so ignorant as to think otherwise.

I'm not a modeler, but dang it, now I *do* want one.

I want one too. Where to get it? Usually you can get anything from Amazon, but they had none, but this book on the topic.

link

I kept looking, eBay is our friend

auction

Germany has some pretty specific laws (and social prejuifices) about any representations of Nazi or other WWII German stuff. Revell could re-release it in the future as "UFO: Alien Invader Craft" to keepthe kit in circulation wirh different box art.

As the article states, it had third reich enisgnia which may be skirting close to the laws Germany has on nazi symbols. That and a crass marketing description probably made them pull it before the law got involved.

Storm in a tea cup.

I think you have a couple different issues colliding here.

Put different decals in the box?

Nazi UFO's are verboten? So how many apoplectic cows did they have after "Iron Sky" came out..?

I am not a PC type. Swastikas, SS lightning, etc. The Germans did it, gloried in it. Accept history apologize (that is real bull) and move on. History can not be rewritten though you can certainly try to suppress it.

28mm Fanatik

LOL. I thought "PC" was all supposed to be a crazy concept made up by some people. Or that we shouldn't overreact over things done with toys and shows.

Doesn't sound so crazy now, does it? :)

Dan

How does the German government address the running wheel
(aka swastika) symbol used by some ancient cultures ?

Is that banned as well, hence limiting historians,
anthropologists and museums from discussing/displaying
etc. ?

BTW, way back in HS I was a bit of a gymnast and the
rings was one of my events (you'd never believe it to
see me now). I mention this because one of the ring
positions we had to assume and hold was called
the Iron Cross.

Maybe they call it something else in Germany.

Iron Cross (both the gymnastic move and the medal) predates the Nazis.

Rmaker: "Iron Cross (both the gymnastic move and the medal) predates the Nazis."

So does the swastika, and even some variants of what were later called the "Bellamy" salute. Clearly it's not an issue of historical facts. "Political correctness" often goes against history (and certainly don't care about context).

Dan
PS. Often the ones who want to legislate and ban those symbols see no incongruity in defending the hammer and sickle symbol, or salute gestures like the raised fist, or the fist to forehead or "shark fin" to forehead salutes. :)

Screw it. Aint worth my time…

Ceterman

Are you saying that all of these instances of the palm-down salute in Latin America are because of fascists, even in Mexico who sent arms to the anti-Franco anti-Mussolini forces, and always claims to be socialist.

YouTube link

If so, someone should go down there right away and set them straight. Tell them they aren't doing it the way Bellamy said. :)

Dan

Whenever someone wants to do a blanket ban on something, and then claim that other things (the things they personally sympathize with) should be treated based on context … I honestly don't understand how their skulls don't implode.

You either ban them all, or use the same context guidelines for all, or you protect them all. Maybe that's just too "American" a concept for some people.

Dan

@bobgnar: try squadron.com

My latest catalog has a couple of different kits and assorted upgrades for the Hanebu. Pricey, though.

I second Squadron, I got 2 on sale

Dan, My points:
1) They said they didn't have the tech to build it.
2) Many say they built something much stranger/hi techier,
(you like that word, huh?!) Die Glocke
3) I'm told (now) that my opinion is just as good as FACTS.
4) It's my opinion that Germany DID build Die Glocke
5) Therefore I want my Revell model of Die Glocke.
6) I am not in favor of a Nazi(Bellamy) salute with the
American flag, surrounded by certain "Good Luck" symbols.
You may be okay with it, but not me. No matter how it's
twisted.

Oh yeah, Point
7) If you gotta have a Nazi Flying Saucer, there are
several other companies that make them. As noted above.

Star Wars was not real either.

The German cross on the wings of an airplane is not a problem in Germany, it's the swastika that's a problem. Model airplanes have had the crosses without problem for decades, it's not skirting the law.

This is just stupid to ban a model kit because it sends the wrong message to children. Using that argument all military miniatures could be banned.

Freedom, free markets, free speech, three things totalitarians don't like.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

LOL. I thought "PC" was all supposed to be a crazy concept made up by some people. Or that we shouldn't overreact over things done with toys and shows.

Doesn't sound so crazy now, does it?

Nah. Raising your eyebrows and shaking your head thinking "seriously?" when you come across news like this is one thing. Getting all indignant and riled up whenever a new a Disney Star Wars movie sees the light of day is a whole different story altogether.

Did nazi that coming….hope everything's Goering to be alright….having said that..probably the Reich statement at the Reich time…

+1 Bunkermeister…
And Allen57, Do you REALLY think Germany has NOTHING to "apologize" for? Or was WW2 BS? For Real? My Dad fought for 4 years for BS? Thanks for setting us all straight.
And Dan, I know WE ALL think of Mexico when we see the Nazi salute. Or at least YOU must… Jesus…
Hundreds of thousands of Mexicans, marching at night, with tiki torches, with swastika flags, errrr, ummm, Tricolor flags shouting "Tomaremos trabajos americanos", is that what you think of when seeing a Nazi salute? It ain't me, Babe. No, no, no…

Ceterman

You were so close. For a second it looked as though you finally understood that it is all about context, and then that second was gone.

Dan
PS. By the way, the only people whose apology counts for the Nazi regime and what it did are almost all dead by now.

Many, many moons ago, when I worked on Aces of the Deep for Dynamix, we had to go through every historical photograph in the game and remove swastikas so we could sell the game in Germany. I found that to be pretty absurd at the time, but we did abide by it. We simply obscured that part of the images.

Fun fact, we originally named the game Grau Wolfe but had to change the name to sell it in Germany as that was the name of a well known terrorist group there.

We had to change several games due to German rules or objections. The original Aces Over Europe featured a beautiful painting of the Arado jet bomber attack on the bridge at Remagen. However, the mayor of the city objected to our use of his city's landmark as the city had declared itself a ‘city of peace.' Back then it was very easy to get a video game banned in Germany, so rather than fight it, every German copy of the game instead featured a picture of a Tempest being shot up by an FW190.

My own A10 Tank Killer game was banned because the German tank manufacturers objected to a game about killing tanks. On the list of games banned in Germany at that time, which included mostly ultra violent games or games with strong sexual content (mostly obscure porn games) was the inclusion of our game about flying the A10 (at a time when games featured so few polygons that tanks barely looked like tanks). Hence our company was highly sensitive about making sure our other games were not banned as Germany was the strongest sales market in Europe.

Today the rules are very different in Germany, and it is much harder to get your games banned there, but the swastika rule remains.

Perhaps the dumbest case of a symbolism ban has to be this one: link

Ignoramuses complaints mean Japan removes a traditional Buddhist symbol from their tourism maps.

Sad to say that I was unable to get my hands on one of those older maps when I visited last.

I love/like/enjoy whole "concept" of Nazi "UFOs", etc. ! But I'm sure no one here forgets what the WWII German/Nazis did. Or agrees with their dogma, etc. We are all "students" history, AFAIK. And my Father fought and was WIA'd while fighting Germans in France.

Now as reprehensible the Nazi hijacked symbol of the swastika is. Based on what the Nazis did while under that symbol, etc. I think if we are going to go with that "paradigm" then the Japanese "Rising Sun"/Meatball should also be banned.

In both situations I don't think banning those symbols from modelling, i.e. toys for wargaming i.e. to be played with might be a bit of a "stretch", IMO …

I have pics of a flying saucer that I made with the Iron Cross decals on it for Sci-fi wargaming … I've posted pics before here of it too. And I don't support Nazis …

Who decided this is a problem?

I'm more than a little worried that we have to eliminate chunks of fiction to prevent people confusing them with fact. Where does that end?

And are children really learning more history from toy packaging that school? Because if so the problem is not toy packaging.

Andrew: "I'm more than a little worried that we have to eliminate chunks of fiction to prevent people confusing them with fact. Where does that end?"

Good point, where does it end? Seeing as how the ban is spilling over into fiction, if the same mindset continues, then I'd say the sky's (space?) the limit. Maybe not even then. :)

Dan

It occurs to me that embedded in the mental fabric of the German political mind, there has always been a tendency to ban something. Totalitarian thinking of the radical or reactionary, the progressive or the conservative, the left or the right, in their extremes states are often indistinguishable from each other to the moderate sentient mind.

Funny Dan. To me, it looks as though you NEVER got it…

Pyrate Captain: "Totalitarian thinking of the radical or reactionary, the progressive or the conservative, the left or the right, in their extremes states are often indistinguishable from each other to the moderate sentient mind."

So the pendulum swung without ever even stopping at center? That's sad.

Except that, instead of being led by a single evil madman and his psychotic minions under the spell of state-controlled media, this pendulum journey into madness is led by a few powerful people who rule the now-paranoid and guilt-beaten lemming masses from the shadows and with the all too willing help of sensationalist media?

Well, I just hope there isn't as much bloodshed there next time the pendulum loses its momentum.

Dan

I saw this model kit in a cool hobby shop in Sacramento, Viking Models, for a low price and kick myself for not getting it.

I just now saw it in the new Micro Mark Summer Sale catalog for over twice that price. But the images in the catalog are scrubbed clean of any Nazi symbolism.

Dan, as usual, you hit the nail on the head. A pendulum propelled by the Marshall Plan and Marshall Stalin.

I think it is safe to say, modern Germany, much like Weimar Germany is run by a politically naive Oligarchy. A swamp, if you will.

The Germans made a variety of highly advanced weapon systems during the war. Wonder if Revell will also drop models of V-1, V-2, Me-262, Me-163, Horten flying wing, Panther tanks, Volkswagwn beetles, etc. Which exemplified the excellent engineering capabilities of the Third Reich.

No, more likely they'll drop them after being threatened to be sued for IP infringement (yes, this is a real thing that has come up in the modelling industry…)

Zephyr1

Is Hitler's "brain in a jar" getting the money from royalties on the designs then?

Dan
TMP link

No, more likely they'll drop them after being threatened to be sued for IP infringement (yes, this is a real thing that has come up in the modelling industry…)

Indeed … Games Workshop does it often …

But can the surviving(?) Nazis sue for IP ?

Which exemplified the excellent engineering capabilities of the Third Reich.

Be careful in today's SJW/PC, etc., environment, you may be considered a supporter of the Nazis ! E.g. I said the Germans/Nazis were ruthlessly effective and efficient in combat ops in early WWII. And I as labelled a Nazi, racist, fascist, even a Neo-Nazi !

So much for historical "accuracy", it's more like revisionist history and by revisionist historians …

Come on, we all know that who ever owns the rights to the old TSR Indiana Jones roleplaying game owns the trademark on "Nazi (tm)" ;)

Hurrahbro

LOL. Considering how many times lazy Hollywood resorts to using Nazis as villains, when there are so many and more creative options out there, I'd say all of the studios would want to have a piece of that "trademark".

Dan

"LOL. Considering how many times lazy Hollywood resorts to using Nazis as villains, when there are so many and more creative options out there, I'd say all of the studios would want to have a piece of that "trademark"."

The undead Nazi-Zombie concept seems to be the ultimate bad guy. How does a parent object to their child killing the Nazi undead in video games? Hollywood has yet to fully explore this idea with rivaling movies.

"The undead Nazi-Zombie concept seems to be the ultimate bad guy. (…) Hollywood has yet to fully explore this idea with rivaling movies."

They aren't big name studio productions, but the Outpost series of movies are pretty good in that regard, as well as a couple of Norwegian 'Nazi Zombie' movies. So at least Europe is ahead of Hollywood on this genre… ;-)

I think the last four paragraphs of that article were written by a space cadet, kind of an agenda driven crazy ass tangent that has nothing to do with the subject.

Are we, here, in this forum, who purport to actually pay attention to and understand the history of mid-20th Century conflicts (among other topics) really so upset that Germany doesn't like Nazi symbols?

I might understand the "PC" complaint if it was an American company we were talking about. A little. But not too much.
We get all worked up about war movies that don't conform to the thousands of historical details that mean so much to us. Yet we have no patience for a company that has decided, on it's own, that it made a misstep in producing a product that was teaching young impressionable minds a lesson that was 100% fiction, that fit the narrative and world view of political extremists that the company did not want to be associated with. Really?

But whatever our view, let us remember that this is NOT a US issue. I don't claim to speak for "the Germans". But maybe we can give just a LITTLE respect to the German perspective here, since it was, after all, a German company, in Germany, that is the center of this story? And if we can't adopt the German perspective, perhaps we can at least try to understand the unique sensitivities of German politics and public discourse.

Let us not forget that this is a nation that was absolutely CRUSHED into the dirt, it's cities bombed flat, a whole generation killed, maimed or shamed, a nation divided for 50 years, as a result of a war that they started, of crimes and horrors that they permeated, because their own democratic processes were not strong enough to resist a charismatic leader who pushed simple-minded slogans, symbols, and scapegoating to the forefront of public dialog. Are there not enough countries around the world today that are also falling prey to the same tactics, by politicians who see stirring up hatred, prejudice and xenophobia as tickets to power, that we want to criticize the Germans for enforcing their own rules and boundaries to prevent that very thing from happening to them … again?

Would we all be so much happier if Germany had no such laws or social awareness? How comfortable to you think the nations of Europe would be if they saw NeoNazis, carrying torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us", marching in the streets of Heidleberg? Do you think that question is lost on Germany's leaders? Do you find it unreasonable for them to think such an event on the evening news might have just a LITTLE impact on German efforts to lead the EU in a direction that corresponds with Germany's own interests? Or even that it might complicate bilateral relations on any given question with Belgium, Denmark, France, Poland or the UK?

Perhaps the dumbest case of a symbolism ban has to be this one: link

Ignoramuses complaints mean Japan removes a traditional Buddhist symbol from their tourism maps.

The ignoramuses you so loathe are mostly the patrons or even the administrators of the facilities, who have asked the map makers not to use the symbol. Maybe you would understand the complaints of those ignoramuses better if you were confronted by the radical right wing showing up uninvited, again and again, at your peaceful retreat, open temple, or even your home or place of business.

It is not the growth of complaints that has led to that symbol being removed. It is the growth of nazi sympathizers and neo-nazis, who keep showing up at those locations. Those nazi sympathizers don't come looking for the acceptance and serenity of Buddhist teachings. They come looking for other nazi sympathizers.*

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

P.S.
*Caveats apply.
I do not claim any exhaustive study or research on this last point. My understanding is entirely based on one conversation with one individual.

That individual was (still is, I presume) a Buddhist monk, from Japan. I met and befriended him while helping him through some assignments in an evening Contract Law class we were both taking about 3 years ago through the UC Berkeley extension program. He was taking the class to help the Buddhist Temple in Berkeley manage it's way through the various contracts it signed with vendors and suppliers. He came to class dressed in normal street clothes, so I had no idea initially that he was a monk. But he was a nice enough fellow, and was clearly struggling to keep up with the lectures and assignments based on limited English language skills, and no foundation of understanding in the American judicial system. As I speak at least a smattering of Japanese (having made ~30 trips to Japan over the years), and will almost always explain things to anyone who does not flee fast enough, I approached him and helped him catch up on all that was proceeding in the class.

Over time we had some interesting conversations. On one of those occasions I pulled out my old tattered Japan Train Map, on which I have penciled in all of the various company facilities I have visited all across Japan. He went looking for his home temple, and was somewhat surprised to see what we would call the Swastika denoting it's location on the map, and explained that the symbol was no longer used because the neo-nazis kept showing up where they weren't welcome.
D.S.

+1 Mark 1,
There is a very ironic post above that suggests that the Germans are totalitarian because they tried to ban their own brand of totalitarianism. Not to mention some might read the post as simple ….

Mark1, very profound. But to use the over-quoted George Santayana, you know the doomed to repeat thing, Germans, or American information revisionists and condemners of the past, seem to have not learned that hiding history, does not make it go away.

Maybe being alarmed, is not so outre after all.

How does the German government address the running wheel
(aka swastika) symbol used by some ancient cultures ?

Is that banned as well, hence limiting historians,
anthropologists and museums from discussing/displaying
etc. ?

Short answer is no. Context is everything.

BTW, way back in HS I was a bit of a gymnast and the
rings was one of my events (you'd never believe it to
see me now). I mention this because one of the ring
positions we had to assume and hold was called
the Iron Cross.

Maybe they call it something else in Germany.

Again no. "Eisernes Kreuz". My Grandfather was a competitive German gymnast.

This is just stupid to ban a model kit because it sends the wrong message to children.

Umm….not what happened. Someone complained that a toy was not accurate historically when reading Revell's description of the toy. Revell's own description indicates that it was a real build, "According to the product box, the ship can reach speeds of 6,000 kilometers per hour (3,728 miles per hour) and was not built beyond the test phase because of World War II." Revell then voluntarily discontinued it.

But to use the over-quoted George Santayana, you know the doomed to repeat thing, Germans, or American information revisionists and condemners of the past, seem to have not learned that hiding history, does not make it go away.

Nice quote, but not really applicable in this case. Who is hiding history?

And +2 Mark1

>"Short answer is no. Context is everything."<

Whose context?

If you're an existentialist like I am, I view it as: This is my world and you're just in it.

>"Umm….not what happened. Someone complained that a toy was not accurate historically when reading Revell's description of the toy. Revell's own description indicates that it was a real build, "According to the product box, the ship can reach speeds of 6,000 kilometers per hour (3,728 miles per hour) and was not built beyond the test phase because of World War II." Revell then voluntarily discontinued it."<

I don't believe the burden of proof is on Revell, when there is a popular opinon, all but fringe, that such a craft did exist, at least in the planning stage. By this logic, no drawing board concept should ever be modeled. So much for any un-built space vehicle concept.

>"Nice quote, but not really applicable in this case. Who is hiding history?"<

Apparently, Revell. Even the concept as a post war fictional design, makes it a part of history. It is documented.