"Excessive painting Detracts from the Game" Topic

An interesting thought occurred to me as I photoed my latest 10mm figures done on the 3D printer.

By reducing the amount of detail painted on a figure or even a vehicle, you reduce the ability of both players to recognize the exact nature of the model. This is a rules fee way of increasing the fog of war without tedious rules. This nearly lead to my downfall when I assumed what I was looking at were IFV's not a mix of IFV's and Armour. Hence too much "art" therefore detracts from the game experience. Discuss.

That's a great way to introduce random, non-realistic elements into the Detect-Identify-Track-Engage kill chain. Instead of driving Probability to Identify by actual ability of forces represented to conduct those processes, let it depend on how different people paint. Great way to introduce non-realistic OPDEC, too!

Why not just use blobs of PlayDoh?

Obviously I disagree. Massively.

There are better ways to introduce fog of war then nondescript chits, blobs, and chucks of plastic if we are doing miniature gaming

Then again – maybe that stand of peasants is really a panzer

etotheipi on the contrary it encourages a level of paintaing that attemps to do what camoflage does, disguise within limits what is seen. Ego it ass to the game by presenting a real world process of recognition. To be fair what I have always considered is that if you were to do REAL wargame modeling at least much of the late war German armour should look like a bush with possibly a gun sticking out.
It would be an interesting Game to do that.

Theoretically interesting, but much laboratory evidence shows that non-descript units are a nightmare for the controlling player to remember which unit is which out on the gaming table!

Even with highly detailed GHQ micro-armour painted to a high standard, I can't tell most WW2 German tanks from each other once they're on the gaming table. And so I avoid micro WW2 games as much as possible to avoid the perpetual difficulties.

encourages a level of paintaing that attemps to do what camoflage does, disguise within limits what is seen.

If you are trying to simulate actual camouflage and other OPDEC, then you are asking for a high level of detail and skill in the painting.

If you are going for camouflage, the realism is also ameliorated by the fact that we physically move the pieces around, so there is no effect on the detect or localize phases of engagement.

If you are just going for visual artistry, independent of creating the actual military effects, have at it!

Etotheipi: +1

Excessive gaming detracts from the painting.

This idea is not for me!!

Tom

I lost a game. Must be the other guy's over-painting?

Dan

Oh, I REMEMBER this one! After Decent Painter is tactically committed, Lead Blobs "reveals" what his troops actually are. Amazingly, Lead Blobs' troops are always what's best for Lead Blobs. This was banned in respectable miniatures circles about 1980.

Either paint troops so there is no question what they are, or admit they're markers and provide a real troop roster to the umpire.

+1 robert

Why bother with physical miniatures and terrain if the visual aspects aren't the main thing? Paper counters or simply the computer can do everything related to the game play/execution aspects, it is only the miniatures that make it a unique part of the broader gaming hobby.

"By reducing the amount of detail painted on a figure or even a vehicle, you reduce the ability of both players to recognize the exact nature of the model. "

The same thing happens when the players forget to bring their eyeglasses and can't see the models clearly… ;-)

Etotheipi: +1

Excessive gaming detracts from the painting.

Exactly … that is one of the reasons I only paint now !

Mini gaming is great, very evocative, eye-catching, etc. However, it is much more "efficient" IMO to use the standard counters & board game, e.g. SPI, AH, GDW, etc., etc.

Zphyr1, the eye glass one is way too severe, if I did that i would only recognise the stuff 1 ft in, By the center of the board all I would see was one large green blob, assuming the battlefield is basicaly green. No chance of seeing 10 mm vehicles, great for Fog but not Fog of War :-).

Or…you could place some beautifully painted Tigers and 88mm flak guns on the table and let the Allied players figure out why their Sherman tank rounds are penetrating the Tiger's frontal armour, and why the 88 rounds are bouncing from their Cromwells.

Then replace those models with beautifully painted Pz IVs and 75mm AT guns once they figure it out.

Because in NW Europe, every time a German AFV was spotted, it was a Tiger. And every gun that fired upon them was indeed an 88.

It seems like you would be committed to painting two sets of each unit: one kind of smudgy for long range, and one with everything neatly painted for close range. I seem to recall somebody (perhaps Don Featherstone) suggesting using wooden blocks at long range, and replacing them with figures as you got closer.

Grelber

May as well play a board game and flip the counters over.

Grelber, I like the idea of using wooden blocks. It is a bit cumbersome, but it would better facilitate the Sighting aspect of a game: "Is that a transport truck, or a tank?… Do I shoot now, or wait? Do I fire AP, or HE? You're killing me, Smalls!" Thanks for sharing! Cheers!

Just have all your units in 4 different sizes, to be replaced by the next size up as it advances across the table.

Also all ACW to be painted sepia.

Reflecting on this thread an interesting thought occurs. Warpainter go from the sublime to the ridiculous, either over detailed over painted figures or suggesting just bits of card. Boargames themselves often use simplified 3D models as it makes it easier to play, they do not always use plain card. I would guess it may still be the most popular board game in the world, monopoly, used 3D counters for the the playing pieces and other elements like houses and hotels. Hence there is clearly lots of game space to use simplified minimal effort 3D pieces to play without the need to paint. If painting is your thing fine but it certainly is not a key part of wargaming and simplification is not all loss.