"South Vietnamese armored cavalry" Topic

Have decided to start a SVN AC platoon. Will probably place them around 1968. I know their M113s had turrets for the 50 cal but did they also have the 30 cals on the sides? I am guessing so. Does anyone know when they started doing this? I know it was after AP BAC so after 1963.
Thanks

Joe

Hi Joe

SVN M113s started to add gunshields summer 1963 and where first to do so. Process took some time.

During this period some M113s where upgraded with the M74C twin 30cal turret.

However there are photos of passengers putting tripod mounted 30cal on roof. Also showing pintles mounted 30cal on M132 and one ACAV type

There's one of M113 w/M74C turret and M40 RR side mounted.

Will look up SVN armour history for suggestions on TOE

John

Hope this helps.

Ok so quick dip into 'Steel and Blood'suggests
61-66 Mech Coy Coy HQ 2 X M113, 3Rifle pl @ M113 and Support Pl 4 M113, 3w/60mm mortar and one w/3.5RR or 75mm RR. All w/50cal
From 1965 add gunshields, some 81mm mortar ILO 60. some M74C turrets.
Units are Cav Troops no longer Mech Inf Coy.
67-72 Cav Troops change to
Hq 3, 3Pls @5, Support Pl 3(I guess) 81mm mortar and one with M40 106RR. Total 22 M113, all with 50.cal. I believe APC carried 6 or 7 soldiers perhaps with M60 and M16

I believe they would be gun shields only and not the whole ACAV package.

Joe if you can get the book Vietnam Tracks:Armor in Battle 1945-1975 by Simon Dunstan it has a section on SVN armor with lots of good pictures. One picture has a M113 with a 57mm RR instead of a M2, caption says from this position the back blast proved unnerving, if not actually dangerous

Jim

Thanks for all the info. TMP is a great place with lots of smart people. Sounds like I could almost do anything. I have Ambush Valley which is a great book and they say starting in 1963 SVN ( or ARVN) started experimenting with mounting all kinds of things on their 113s. By 1965 am pretty sure they had the 50 cal in a shielded turret standard. My guess is some would have the 30s.
John, thanks. for a squad I have 10 men.
VCarter- thanks. do you have a source?
Scouts- will look for the book. Ordered Iron Cavalry for $4 USD on EBAY today.
Plan to use Battlefront's ACAVs and I am surprised with the number of choices I have!
Thanks

Joe

I have Sqdrn. Signal Pub., Gun Trucks, but still regret missing there volume, "Armor in Vietnam" IIRC the title correctly.
Not just for the actual 'MBT' info, but for the 113's, Armored Cars, Ontos' etc. support unit info.

I was Not aware that the ARVN /SVN had any of the 'full on' CAV version of the M113's.
After reading this page, I 'will be' doing some google, bing etc. for the 113 variations.
I know a version of the 'MUTT' had a 105(?) RR, but was not aware -anyone- using them on the 113 APC's.

^5 and MANY THANKS TO ALL OF YOU.

(sigh) now IF ONLY I could get some of the locals interested in this period. UGH.

Happy to pass on what I have.

The Vietnam Tracks shows waist 30cal with should on M132 and what seems a conventional M113 – but can't see both sides, only left.
Reason for smaller squad is that the Pl didn't get larger vehicles went from three to five. SVN army Cav troop was Mech Inf Coy not ACAV like US.

Reference:

Way to many coffee table books.

Squadron Armor no. 17 – M113 in action

it does have a picture of an ARVN M-113 with the ACAV kit as well as a really good shot of the 106mm RR on the right ride of the track (so that it could be used from the read compartment). Also has the twin mounted navy turret.

Squadron Armor in Vietnam – Some really good shot of early ARVN M-113 without gun shields.

Osprey #458 – Army of the Republic of Vietnam – good general history with organization info.

Hope this helps.

Vince

All,
Thanks again for all your knowledge. Vince thanks for the leads. Scouts, ordered Vietnam Tracks off Ebay for $6. USD
Sounds like after AP BAC ARVN started experimenting with all kinds of stuff through 1966. I can mount anything during this period. After 1966 Ambush Valley states that ARVN settled on a 50 up front with two 30s in the rear, all with non standard shields. " This configuration predated and influenced the US Army's ACAV configuration, which was later supplied to ARVN replacing the improvised kits."
Now those of you with picture books since mine aren't here yet, how were they painted?

Thanks again

Joe

Joe from the B-W photos most of the vehicles look OD green. A couple of photos show camoed M113s but no idea about colors. Just looked in Squadron/Signal Pubs:Armor in Vietnam have colors as tan over OD. Vietnam Tracks has the same camo pattern but the colors are purplish brown stripes over OD.

Jim

Ebay.. DUH (slapping myself. hard!)
GOD, It never even occurred too me to 'go there' for legit reference books.

As too the '1st' US CAV 113's, I seem to remember a 'very' early version, mounting both the .50 cal. & the M60's, but -all- of the gun shields were simple shields that covered the front and small area to the sides.

Did a quick look, found a cpl. interesting image.
The first shows as I was saying, the more 'basic' shields. Considering the uniforms/helmets, guessing its from late 60's, early 70's. I'm sure you Vets would know more accurately than my guess work.
link

This is a model only, but its the 1st Ive seen of a 113 mounting a RR. Interesting configuration. Possibly an ARVN unit.
link

The "Sqdrn. Sig. Pub. In Action:" series were/are a great set of books to go to, if your interested in a specific weapon sys., land, sea or air.

The picture of the M113 on the airfield has .30 cals pintle mounted in the back. Definitely not m60s. One crewman even has a boonie hat. I think the front armor is the normal gun shield it just doesn't have the coupla armor mounted.

Thanks guys. I was guessing OD green; that will be easy. On my other stuff I put a SVN flag on the left rear just because I thought it was cool. ( The french put french flags on their stuff so I figure ARVN was an outgrowth… it could have happened.)

Joe

scouts19508a
The.. 113.. has .30 cals.. Definitely not m60s.

Obviously.

I think the front armor is the normal gun shield it just doesn't have the coupla armor mounted.

I noticed the 'lack' of the coupla for the .50, as the type of gun shield was the main interest of my search.