"The Sirmoor Battalion and the Nasiri Battalion." Topic
19 Posts
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Paskal | 08 May 2018 1:37 a.m. PST |
Hello everyone, In the Battles of the sikh wars, how were dressed and armed the Gurkha soldiers in British service in the Sirmoor Battalion and the Nasiri Battalion ? They were dressed like HM 60 th? They were armed with India Pattern Brown Bess muskets, the rifled musket with 2-ft.9-in.barrel ordered in 1840 or the Brunswick carbine like HM 60 th? As I did not find any specific figurines, I bought for lack of better, the reference Old Glory – 25mm Colonial / Indian Mutiny / British (Mutiny) CMB-009: Gurkhas Charging incl. Command … There will certainly be transformations to be made …
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Mr Steve | 08 May 2018 3:21 a.m. PST |
I have pictures of both on my pinterest page link I also suggest for your previous questions trying to find copies of Miniature Wargames magazines from 1996 which have a series of excellant articles on the Sikh wars with very good drawings. no 156 onwards if i recall. I used these along with some information in Flames in the Punjab ruleset for my 20mm Sikh war armies |
deflatermouse | 08 May 2018 3:51 a.m. PST |
One account I have has both Simoor and Nasiri dressed in Green as per the Rifles. It also states that "…in 1849 they were RE-EQUIPPED with the rifle.." So it says it is uncertain if they were true riflemen or even Light Infantry. Possibly they at this stage were still infantry and not yet riflemen. |
Dennis | 08 May 2018 8:26 a.m. PST |
As for weapons, in the First Anglo-Sikh War the Nusiri Rifles were all armed with 2 groove percussion rifles by December 1845, but due to problems with the 2 groove rifles at Ferozeshah, all 2 groove rifles were withdrawn from 43rd BNI (LI), 68th BNI and Nusiri about January 1846. The 43rd BNI (LI) and 68th BNI got percussion muskets in replacement, Nusiri got percussion fusils in replacement and kept them until after the end of the First Anglo-Sikh War. The rifle company of the Sirmoor Rifles had Baker percussion rifles while the reminder had flintlock fusils to June 1846. BTW, it was common in the First Anglo-Sikh War for Bengal Native Infantry Regiments designated light infantry-and some not so designated-to have their rifle companies armed with rifles, typically Bakers. |
Paskal | 08 May 2018 10:02 a.m. PST |
Thanks for your help @ Mr Steve Thank you but to find copies of Miniature Wargames magazines from 1996 which with articles on the Sikh wars, it would be necessary to know which numbers exactly. Flames in the Punjab ruleset? What is it? From who? And when? @ Mr Steve True riflemen or even Light Infantry? But at the time of the Sikh Wars, it's the same thing! @Dennis The BNI had a light company + sometimes a company of rifles with Baker rifles ??? It is not rather Brunswick carbines like HM 60 th? What were the uniforms of these BNI rifle companies? Like HM 60 th? And all NL were considered light infantry ??? @ Mr Steve, deflatermouse and Dennis… King's and HEIC battalions in India in the third Mahratta and Pindari War (1817 – 1819)had one or more companies armed and dressed as riflemen. An officer, R.G.Wallace, recorded that the 2nd Bn., 56th Foot had ‘ his 8th and Light Companies armed with rifles (But what type? Baker carbine?)and clothed in green'. When the 65th relieved it at Poona in 1817,'the rifleswere transferred to the 65th and two of the companies were soon arrayed in green'. The Bengal European also had a rifle company until 1824, and a officer expressed his grief at'parting with my handsome green uniform'.Unfortunately no details of these uniforms have materialised. |
Paskal | 08 May 2018 11:22 a.m. PST |
On this website, link I read that several BNI had a rifle company in addition to a light company. 1- One of you, knows which BNIs had a Rifle Company in addition to or instead of a light company during the Sikh Wars? 2 – One of you, knows which BNI had a Rifle Company instead of a light company during the Sikh Wars? 3 – One of you, knows which BNI had no Rifle Company, but only a light company during the Sikh Wars? 4 – One of you, knows which BNI Rifle Companies have been dressed in rifle green uniforms. " 5 – One of you, knows what types of rifles used the BNI companies rifles? 7 – One of you, knows if during the Sihks wars, British battalions had rifle companies ? 8 – If so,one of you, knows which ones, which uniforms and which weapons? 9 – During the Sihks wars, all the BNI are considered as light infantry or only some, designated as such? |
Mr Steve | 08 May 2018 11:43 a.m. PST |
No 156 May 1996 British No 157 June Sikhs No 158 Sepoys and Gurkhas No 159 2nd Sikh war Flames in the Punjab from Sergeants 3 in the USA sergeants3.com/18.html also Sikh War Flags from virtual armchair general link My understanding was that the Grenadier and Light infantry designation was more of an honorific title and was used to mark a particular episode in the unit's history. Therefore the light companies of infantry battalions were turned into riflemen with the Brunswick rifle but when this happened I don't know. MW158 says that the Sirmoor battalion was re-equipped with the Brunswick rifle in 1849 |
Paskal | 08 May 2018 12:53 p.m. PST |
@ Mr Steve The light companies of (the British ?) infantry battalions were turned into riflemen with the Brunswick rifle,he had what??? The Sirmoor battalion was re-equipped with the Brunswick rifle in 1849 ??? And before that??? For the Sikh Wars, I use the 19th.Century Warfare entitled Sebastopol, Sadowa and Sedan by Mr. T. J. Halsall, Mr. J.G.Kew and Mr. A.M.Roth (Published by Newbury Rules) and ARMY LISTS for 19th Century Warfare (1830-1890) by T. J. Halsall (Also Published by Newbury Rules). |
Dennis | 08 May 2018 1:28 p.m. PST |
My understanding is the same as Steve's; the designation as light infantry or grenadiers for the Bengal Native Infantry was generally honorific, while designation as rifles generally meant the unit was armed with rifles. Also, all of the following and my foregoing post applies only to the first Anglo-Sikh War and only to those BNI regiments that served generally in the combat zone. I did not research any rear echelon units, and I don't have my research notes for the 2nd Anglo-Sikh War to hand. With that said, those BNI regiments designated light infantry, including the 1st Bengal European Light Infantry, each had a rifle company armed with either 2 groove or Baker rifles-other than the rifle companies for those regiments that had them, no BNI regiments had light infantry or grenadier companies during the Anglo-Sikh Wars-the 2nd and 16th BNI were designated as grenadier regiments but had had no unusual armament or, so far as I know, training or uniform. In addition, the 41st, 48th, and 68th BNI also had rifle companies although they were not designated light infantry. To complicate the matter further, in the BNI regiments designated light infantry, 26th, 38th, 42nd and 43rd and the Sirmoor Rifles -and the Nusiri Rifles after Ferozeshah as above-those companies not armed with rifles of some sort were armed with percussion fusils. I suppose it's possible that fusils were issued so the troops could maneuver in a light infantry role but that is pure speculation as I have no information other than armament to support such a possibility. I provided Andrew Preziosi with a short article on British and BNI small arms in the First Anglo-Sikh War some time back and it may be included in his forthcoming book so I won't post it here. If it's not in Andrew's book I'll make it available to interested parties. As for uniforms, I have no special information that is not found in Mollo or the Miniature Wargames articles. IIRC, those articles were written by John Watts and he and I, and others including Ray Garbee and Patrick Wilson, engaged in some discussion about these subjects on TMP some years back. |
Paskal | 08 May 2018 11:45 p.m. PST |
recap: 1 / The BNI regiments designated as light infantry, the 26th, 38th, 42nd and 43rd, but when they were designated as light infantry? And they only had a company of rifles and no ordinary light company? Because it seems that some had both? all the men of Sirmoor Rifles and Nasiri Rifles did not have rifles, it does not make sense. So there would be a company of Rifles in rifle battalions, that does not make sense.(Nasiri or Nusiri battalions?) 2 / No BNI regiments had light infantry or grenadier companies during the Anglo-Sikh Wars ??? You confuse with the time of the mutiny ? Besides, the elite companies disappeared much later, Obviously these are the center companies that disappeared when the number of companies decreased. It was during the Cardwell Army Reforms and was in place between 1868 and 1874. Regimental reorganization and renumbering of coys took place following the Order of 1871. Also the answer is 1871 ! In conclusion, apart from the Sirmoor battalions and the Nasiri battalions, the only BNI with a rifle company were the 26th, 38th, 41st, 42nd, 43rd, 48th, and 68th BNI. And these 7 BNI no longer had ordinary light companies? And the British regiments (except HM60 th) did not have rifle companies in the sikh wars? |
Paskal | 09 May 2018 2:46 a.m. PST |
The 45th BNI had a company of rifles and was also designated as a regiment of light infantry? Note that the Baker is not a carbine but a rifle and was never designated a carbine. As you say "Grenadier" was honourific only The Sirmoor Ghurkas had rifles sometime before the mutiny but the Nasiri battalion had muskets in the 1820s – both wore green coats with – at that time Black facings. The sirmoor only adopted the red of the 60th during the mutiny. |
Paskal | 09 May 2018 5:57 a.m. PST |
If the soldiers of the flank companies had uniforms with peculiarities (like the wings on the shoulders). So all the soldiers from all 2nd and 16th BNI companies designated as grenadier regiments had wings on their shoulders unless the title of grenadiers is only honorific? So all the soldiers of all the companies of the 26th, 38th, 42nd and 43rd designated as light infantry, had also wings on their shoulders unless the title of light infantry is only honorific? ? The 45 th BNI also has a company of rifles. 1 / There were BNI classified "Light" without rifles company ? 2 / What British line battalions had a company of rifles ? 3 / Not a single British light battalion in the Sikh wars besides HM60 th? |
22ndFoot | 09 May 2018 7:17 a.m. PST |
You might find this forthcoming book useful: link Out in June. It has been the topic of conversation on several strings here. Some interesting bits and pieces here too: link |
15th Hussar | 09 May 2018 9:01 a.m. PST |
22nd Foot et al, No, not out in June, sorry…sometime in 2019, I am still working on it. Matter of fact I will start using that Blogs of War page here to keep everyone up to date starting sometime next week…probably Tuesdays. |
Paskal | 09 May 2018 9:23 a.m. PST |
@22ndFoot Thanks 22ndFoot, I do not want to buy The Gurkhas (Elite Series) Osprey Military 49 like that I will be making it for the Sikh Wars … But how were the soldiers of the BNI rifle companies dressed? Like the Gurkhas? @Andrew Preziosi In 2019 I know, I think I'll forget, so you'll have to refresh my memory in 2019 … |
15th Hussar | 09 May 2018 9:26 a.m. PST |
I'll be blogging once a week, on TMP, so just follow along there! |
Paskal | 09 May 2018 11:58 p.m. PST |
@Andrew Preziosi: If I think about it … which will surprise me because 2019 it's too far away … @Mr Steve, deflatermouse, Dennis and 22ndFoot: For the gurkhas, it is settled, remains more than to know the uniforms of the soldiers of the companies of rifles of the BNI. |
Paskal | 11 May 2018 6:53 a.m. PST |
Anyone know if at battle at the Battle of Goojerat the 3rd and 19th Bombay Native Infantry had rifle companies and if these two battalions were considered light infantry? |
Paskal | 13 May 2018 12:01 a.m. PST |
According to a East India Register and an Army List of 1845, the only regiments with a rifle company dressed in dark green rather than red are: The 1st Madras Native Infanty, 5 th Madras Native Infanty, 16 th Madras Native Infanty, 24 Madras Native Infanty, 26th Madras Native Infanty, 36th Madras Native Infanty, 38th Madras Native Infanty and 49th Madras Native Infanty. No Bengal Native Infantry or Bombay Native Infantry battalion is designated as having owned a company of rifles in 1845! In the Sikhs wars, the European infantry regiments of the HEIC have the same uniforms as those of the British infantry regiments? So there is a big contradiction with what I read above on this topic! Sources: Armies of the East India Company 1750-1850 by Stuart Reid. |
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