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"Russian colour bearers." Topic


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482 hits since 14 Apr 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Major Bloodnok14 Apr 2018 2:28 p.m. PST

I was looking at George Nafziger's book on the Russian army and I noticed in the drawings of the battalion organization that the colour party was between the two platoons of the second company. There were two colour bearers listed and they stood one behind the other. Could anyone else verify that placement of the colours? Thanks

Sho Boki14 Apr 2018 6:14 p.m. PST

Signed as nr.2 in page ?
Yes, this is correct.

Here in TMP was talked about this before repeadetly.

Le Breton Inactive Member15 Apr 2018 2:09 a.m. PST

For late period Russians, both Guard and Army ….

1st Shef's and 3rd Commander's Grenadier, Fusilier or Muskeeter battalions would from in 8 platoons : (from right to left) Grenadier Platoon, 1. Center Platoon, 2. Center Platoon, 3. Center Platoon, 4. Center Platoon, 5. Center Platoon, 6. Center Platoon, Marksmen Platoon. The Center Platoons (and the battalion itself) would be termed Grenadier in the Life-Grenadier regiment, Fusilier in Grenadier regiments and Musketeer in Infantry regiments.
Between the 3. and 4. Center Platoons (both when deployed and when in a column of platoons) would be the Banner Group, formed as follows:
SSUPUSS
SSXXXSS
SSUPUSS
S = grenadier, fusilier or musketeer (soldier rank) : 3 chosen men from each company in the battalion
U = "junior under-officer" (corporal rank)) : 1 chosen man from each company in the battalion
P = "portupey-praporshchik" (literally "bearer-ensign", a noble officer candidate with sergeant rank) with the flag : 2 chosen from among the 4 in the battalion
X = empty placeholder, called "void"

In the 1st Shef's Battalion, the front flag was the "white" cross, and the rear flag the "colored" cross. The 2nd Replacement and 3rd Commander's battalions had 2 flags with the "colored" cross.

2nd Replacement Fusilier or Muskeeter battalions, if taking the field apart from the "active" battalions of the regiment, would form in 6 platoons : as above, but without the Grenadier and Marksmen platoons. They did carry flags, in a Banner Group, as per the diagram above.
The Guard's 2nd Battalions served with together with 1st and 3rd Battalions.
The Guard did also send a detachment depot troops into the field in a Combined Guard Battalion of 6 platoons. No flag, but likely did form a Banner Group (as per Combined Grenadier battalions).

Combined Grenadier battalions (formed from the combining of Grenadier companies of 2nd Replacement battalions of regiments in the same division) would form in 6 platoons : (from right to left) Grenadier Platoon from jäger regiment, Grenadier Platoon from senior heavy regiment, Grenadier Platoon from junior heavy regiment, Marksmen Platoon from junior heavy regiment, Marksmen Platoon from senior heavy regiment, Marksmen Platoon from jäger regiment. Although they did not carry flags into the field, the still formed a Banner Group as per the diagram above.
The Guard did not have Combined Grenadier battalions.

Jäger battalions, which carried no flag in the field, did still form a Banner Group, but without the two ranks of chosen soldiers marked "S" in the diagram above. Their Center Platoons were called, naturally, Jäger. The jäger officer candidate was called "portupey-yunker".

4th Reserve Battalions, formed of 6 Recruit Platoons, had no flags and did not form Banner Groups. They entered into combat operations only under the most unusual conditions (the 4th Reserve Battalion of the 10th Jäger regiment was called to service on the Polish border, some of the 4th Reserve battalions of the Taganrog recruit depot were fielded in the Caucasus, etc.)
The Guard and Army Grenadier regiments did not have 4th Reserve Battalions.

When defiling in parade formations, the Banner Group is sometimes shown at the head of the battalion, after the battalion commander. This does not seem to be found in the regulations and may be artistic license. In open square, the Banner Group was, naturally, inside the square.

Le Breton Inactive Member15 Apr 2018 2:46 a.m. PST

Flags remained in use until new ones were awarded. Many regiments thus had obr. 1797 flags in 1812-1815.

If a regiment lost a flag, it was left without it until a new award of a flag was merited.

For up to 3 flags lost, each battalion (the 2nd, then 3rd, then 1st) would not field one of two flags. For more flags lost, the regulations stated that a "plain banner" could be used as a substitute. The color is not specified, but most likely would be the battalion distinctive color (which changed over the period).

So, for a given regiment at a particular time, it is likely a good idea to check exactly what was the status of the flags.

"in the drawings of the battalion organization that the colour party was between the two platoons of the second company."

Other than for Combined Grenadier battalions ….
The 3. Center Platoon (tactical) was formed from the 1st Platoon of the 2nd Fusilier/Musketeer/Jäger Company (administrative).
The 4. Center Platoon (tactical) was formed from the 2nd Platoon of the 2nd Fusilier/Musketeer/Jäger Company (administrative).

For Combined Grenadier battalions ….
The 3. Platoon (tactical) was the Grenadier platoon of the junior heavy infantry regiment (administrative).
The 4. Platoon (tactical) was the Marksmen platoon of the junior heavy infantry regiment (administrative).

Note : There were a small number of "non-standard" Combined Grenadier battalions (e.g. where a later change in divisional organization left the division's combined grendiers including men from regiments no longer with the division, or when Bagration made a "jäger-heavy" combined grenadier battalion for active operations and sent a "jäger-less" combined grenadier battalion to guard the route to Mozyr', and so on)

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