"What was so controversial about the Vietnam War?" Topic

Interesting …

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Amicalement
Armand

It was run by a government that didn't want to win.

To fight a successful war you don't have to defeat your opponent, you have to remove their ability or will to continue fighting.

The simplest method is to send everything you have to the North and trash the place until they surrender and somebody else takes over and promises to play nice.

The hurdle to that was escalation with the USSR and China.

Everything else is an excuse after the facts, the protests didn't stop the war, TV didn't stop the war, the allegations of widespread fragging and drug use didn't stop the war, it wasn't the civil rights movement that stopped the war, it wasn't the lack of will to fight that stopped the war, the successive administrations doing right or wrong didn't stop the war, Tet Offensive didn't stop the war, it ended when the US allowed the South to fall rather than continue a confrontation and got their revenge in Afghanistan.

They were drafting white people….

Irish Marine +1

That and the damn stoned and smelly hippies. And all the wonderful anti-US military movies and shows that our own Hollywood put out. Face it, if pro films worked during WW2, these anti ones worked too, except with the opposite effect.

Plus that's when 35-year old Jane Fonda was kidnapped by North Vietnamese and forced to pose with their antiaircraft guns. Don't worry, that will become the official story one of these days. Either that or that she was simply too young to know what she was doing.

Also, that was when the existence of mutants and X-men went public, right? :)

Dan
YouTube link

Jane Fonda = pampered, spoiled, naive, anti-American useful idiot.

Hope she dies soon and painfully.

Just imagine what it would have been like if the Soviets (or China) had been part owners of our own Hollywood studios and news channels during the Vietnam War Era!

It lacked a cogent reason why 55,000 Americans should die. Not to mention the millions of Vietnamese.

Stop the spread of Communism, just like in the Korean War. We should have simply invaded the North and conquered them as we did the Germans and Japanese held areas in WWII. A quick, decisive war that crushed the enemy right away would have had fewer casualties in the long run.
We worried too much about what the Chinese or the Russians might do, rather, we should have made them worry about what we were going to do!
Mike Bunkermeister Creek
bunkermeister.blogspot.com

We tried to invade North Korea and got kicked out. That worked out well.

Mike: "We worried too much about what the Chinese or the Russians might do, rather, we should have made them worry about what we were going to do!"

Agreed. They had us beaten on multiple fronts. Our people were hanging their anti-US posters on our soil, openly, all over homes and offices.

Dan

+2 Irish Marine

For me, it was the fact that THEY really wanted me to go and that I really, really didn't want to…

Well, Winston, please explain the reasons why 416,800 had to die in WW2?

What does that have to do with Vietnam?
Isn't that the topic of this thread?
If you want, explain why 55,000 Americans, and let's not forget the millions of Vietnamese, had to die. I'm all ears. Or something.

To make this a bit more personal, please explain why you are so willing to have made ME one of the 55,000. Why do you want me dead for these last 47 years?

Winston: "To make this a bit more personal, please explain why you are so willing to have made ME one of the 55,000. Why do you want me dead for these last 47 years?"

WHO here said anything about wanting you to have been among the casualties?

I've re-read all the posts here and I don't see ANYTHING that even remotely hints at such a thing.

This is about why the Vietnam War had become so controversial, even now long after it was fought. The reasons are definitely many. But the only ones I've ever heard tell a serviceman that they wish he hadn't survived were the protesters themselves. The same ones who spat on our soldiers in every war since then, and who loved to burn our flag or wipe their arses with it for every little thing in life that didn't go their way (and I'm not talking something important like getting drafted).

Dan

I wasn't old enough to be drafted to fight in Vietnam, but I would have gone to Canada or not fought either.

It started with Emperor Bao Dai who was removed by US backed Diem in a rigged election in 1955. Diem was then removed in a CIA backed coup by the South Vietnamese military, who executed Diem. Thieu was placed in power by the US backing. So, corrupt South Vietnamese puppet regimes were in power from 1955-1975 with US and French backing.

The French were defeated by Viet Minh fighters and the French military left Vietnam. The US sent advisors and CIA advisors to prop up the S. Vietnamese military in the early sixties. No declaration of war was signed. It was a police action. At it's height, the US had 1/2 million soldiers in Vietnam and more in a Laos and Cambodia. The S. Vietnamese army had 1.5 million soldiers. Neither was "winning" against the NVA. The US population was never told the truth about the war, and when the truth came to light it turned out that the US voters did not want a war in SE Asia. That is a beginning of an explanation of why I think the US -Vietnam War was so unpopular and controversial. I think it was badly conceived, badly commanded, and badly explained to the US voters and soldiers. It was a poorly executed disaster from the very start to the bitter and bloody end.

Well, silly me I enlisted in 1966.

A lot of what has been posted here is the result of the distorted coverage of the war by the US media(see cronkite declaring the Tet offensive a victory for the vc, when in fact it was the destruction of the soviet backed vc as an effective fighting force). But, the liberal media made sure distorted reporting was the norm and there were no alternative media to present the truth. So of course public opinion was shaped against it.

Also, the "anti-war protests" were in fact protests against the draft by the baby boomers who didn't want to be inconvenienced by it. After the draft was ended the "anti-war" protests went from over 300 to less than a handful, but the war was still being fought. And had it been pursued correctly would have resulted in victory and a free South Vietnam.

CC
Let's get to my question. Why was it worth 55,000 dead Americans?
Leave out the smelly hippies and Hanoi Jane, and just answer that question.

And lest we forget, why was it worth millions of Vietnamese dead.
Oh, right. The Commie Horde and all those dominos.

Winston: "Why was it worth 55,000 dead Americans?"
You speak as if those who started it knew it was going to end up being a half-arse affair, with that many casualties and with nothing to show for it.

And you still haven't explained how that became "you want me dead".

Dave, my brother and cousin enlisted too. Hat off to you too, Sir.

Dan

…"inconvenienced"…
John 11:35

Got it. When Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, LBJ, Nixon etc decide we must show resolve…

Irish Marine had it totally correct, btw.
The Powers that Be were totally willing to wage a war, but were not willing to do what it took to win it. So, millions died. Including 55,000 Americans. All so a President could show resolve and look strong. I LOVE when a president looks strong and shows resolve.

My college deferment ended after one year. Then I went into the Lottery and had #350. I wouldn't have gone to Canada. Or Sweden. As I said at the time, the Russians would have to be coming up the Susquehanna before they would take me. Had they called me up I would have gone. But they didn't.
So, I may or may not have survived to be the OFM if I had drawn number 32. And that's why I take it personal.
Had I drawn 32, all you elderly hawks would have shed no tears over me.

I will also freely admit the hypocrisy of me at the time, luxuriating in having Draft Lottery number 350, and simultaneously condemning smelly hippies and Hanoi Jane.

Hey Winston

I think there's a Fonda aerobics VHS tape that the floodwaters floated into the space behind our yard, and might still be there on the other side of the back fence.

You want me to send it to you? :)

Dan

The Vietnam War was lost because we couldn't make ourselves look like the good guys fighting for what is right in a just war, like in WW2. We simply couldn't maintain the moral high ground.

A few celebrities playing diplomats won't change that.

I was in Vietnam not long ago.

Not surprisingly, they are very proud at having defeated a super-power in "the American War" (their name) & there are many museums, monuments and sites commemorating the victory.

They seem exceptionally nice people & when I tactfully asked various people of different ages (including those who were adults during the conflict), they all said they forgave the US.

Probably time to forget the bitterness elsewhere too.

My older brother served in Vietnam. He does not ever talk about it. The family think it was a war not worth fighting.

Stonemountain has hit key points. The US media were spouting how we were losing when the VC/NVA generals were wondering when they would be crushed. Too much political interference into prosecuting the war IMHO. I tried to enlist specifically for Vietnam but was rejected on health problems. I felt that stopping Communism was a just cause (and still is to me).

If you genuinely believe Jane Fonda was in any way to blame, then that explains more about why the war was lost than Hanoi Jane posing with an AA gun.

The US army did everything right, they deployed a force that could have wiped the floor with nazi Germany at the top of its strength given six months warning that the Yanks are coming …

They had low casualties, they dominated most areas, any conventional force that ever tried a straight fight was beaten up and had to hand over their lunch money.

The post-war era is filled with so many legends, distorted stories and received wisdom that the simple fact is that the war was a complete failure on the strategic and political level.

Remember we were in the middle of decolonization and every other nation in Asia was doing exactly the same thing as Vietnam and to top it off we had quite a few countries that turned to the Soviet block for guidance, yet the US became completely myopic and focused on trying to salvage a single one of the many attempts by former Colonial powers to restore control.

And politicians got stuck by the exact same logic that drove the Great War, the US wasn't winning, but it was all but losing. The US was never really defeated, and the North adopted the same tactic the Romans did when fighting Hannibal and is one of the main rules of warfare : "If you are facing a near invincible foe, keep him busy chasing ghosts."

The delay strategy worked because it cost the US a fortune and a huge effort trying to find and obliterate the enemy and force them to give up.

Had there not been a Cold War and the experience of Korea, the US would simply have invaded the North and forced a regime change. I'm not saying it would have lasted, but at least the US could bow out, claim a victory and if things did go wrong, leave the locals to deal with it as was standard practice everywhere else.

So the war was lost because :

1) They got obsessed with one country at the expense of everything else.
2) The enemy refused to fight and get properly obliterated while the geopolitical situation meant you had no freedom to pursue the right kind of strategy.
3) All this was costing a lot of money and the war became unpopular, politicians tried to get rid of it by either cranking it up or trying to weasel their way out. The North Vietnamese knew this and played dirty to the last minute so that the deals turned into a fiasco.

And as Henry said:

"And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."

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As Owen wrote:

"My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. "

THE TMP bug x10 ate my post … so it ! Regardless, I agree with the points in Patrick's post …

And no matter what, IMO, Jane Fonda was wrong doing what see did … In the old days, I'd think that could be considered treason … I'd think …

When I was in basic, one of my platoon was an ex-Captain in the Royal Laotian Army. He and his family survived because of the U.S. being there. Ask him if it was worth it.

If the US had not been there at all, would he and his family have been in danger?
Does he nullify the millions of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians who died?

"millions of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians"

Unbiased, reliable source? Facts pulled from nether regions are always suspect and questionable.

And not being an English Lit major I can probably be out quoted.
But one from one of my favorite war poets. Along with many others.

Armand,

See what you have started?

Dave

Dave

Just wait. In another generation it will be billions.

Dan

If you genuinely believe Jane Fonda was in any way to blame, then that explains more about why the war was lost than Hanoi Jane posing with an AA gun.

Straw Man. No one thinks Jane Fonda caused the war.

But supporting the enemy by visiting them, even if you think the war is misguided, is beyond the pale.

It was a direct slap in the face to all her fellow countrymen, many through no choice of their own, who were in the field fighting, and bleeding, and dying. It was inexcusable.

Let's get to my question. Why was it worth 55,000 dead Americans?
Leave out the smelly hippies and Hanoi Jane, and just answer that question.

The fight against totalitarianism and Communism took place over many years, from 1945 to the fall of the Berlin Wall. And taht fight was ultimately successful. To the betterment of millions around the world (ask Eastern Europe) and to the security of the USA. The Vietnam War was just one part of that larger conflict.

Yes, the Vietnam War didn't work out as hoped. But how arrogant of you to dismiss it out of hand. Hindsight is 20/20.

Also, the "anti-war protests" were in fact protests against the draft by the baby boomers who didn't want to be inconvenienced by it. After the draft was ended the "anti-war" protests went from over 300 to less than a handful, but the war was still being fought. And had it been pursued correctly would have resulted in victory and a free South Vietnam.

This. How fat and lazy we've become. And it's why this Country, like the Roman Empire, will fail one day.

My college deferment ended after one year.

This always amazes me. How in the world can attending college be considered a valid excuse for not being subject to the draft?

Did people protest such a ridiculous deferment at the time?

Did Jane ask for apologies in some moment?

Amicalement
Armand

At one point she said that she was uncomfortable throughout the entire appearance. Does she look uncomfortable, pressured, coerced or anything like that?

Then she said she was too young to know any better. She was actually 35, and when she came up with that lame excuse she was certainly old enough to know better than to say such a ridiculous thing.

So whatever "apology" she may have uttered later was just as sincere and selfless as her previous excuses and justifications.

Dan
PS. By the way, to this day my parents will not watch anything she's been part of.

"millions of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians"

Unbiased, reliable source? Facts pulled from nether regions are always suspect and questionable.

Dave I asked the same question to Dan on another thread, do you have a source for more accurate casualties?

By the way, to this day my parents will not watch anything she's been part of.

I watch Barbarella and Cat Ballou all the time…they're funny. As a matter of fact, I watched Barbarella two days ago.

Facts pulled from nether regions are always suspect and questionable.

From a "vet":

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These numbers are generally accepted by reputable historians & commentators. Certainly, the Vietnamese suffered grieviously for their stunning victory. The physical damage to the country from Agent Orange & massive bombing is still apparent. I'm an eye witness to this fact.

But one from one of my favourite war poets.

I think Shakespeare was under no delusions about the nature of war. This line could apply to the American Vietnamese era conscription practice of sending a disproportionate number of poor, badly educated & non-white to fight.

"Tut, tut; good enough to toss; food for powder, food for powder; they'll fill a pit as well as better." Henry IV Part 1

Considering that a significant percentage of the South Vietnamese population that opposed the Communists fled the country (or was killed or 're-educated'), one would expect the current population to be in tune with the 'official' government line.

Goragrad

And, from the look of things, some of ours too in the West, via a different "re-education" process.

Dan

From Wikipedia
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Considering that a significant percentage of the South Vietnamese population that opposed the Communists fled the country (or was killed or 're-educated'), one would expect the current population to be in tune with the 'official' government line

And considering that a significant percentage chose to join the VC or otherwise stand against the imperialists, one would expect that they prefer to live under communism. So who are we to tell them otherwise?

And considering that a significant percentage chose to join the VC or otherwise stand against the imperialists, one would expect that they prefer to live under communism. So who are we to tell them otherwise?

Vietnam is, of course, a one party state that represses political freedom for its population. However, I still embrace your final sentence. Interfering in other countries has not brought a lot of happiness to the modern world.

The stunning aspect of the whole Vietnam business is the abject failure of US diplomacy. Prior to the war, an understanding, even an alliance, between Uncle Ho & the US was possible. Vietnam's primary motivation was, is & always will be hostility to China & any enemy of China is, ipso facto, their friend.

However the American knee jerk reaction to the name "Communism" & a flawed belief in the failed concept of the Domino Theory meant a divided Vietnam, a US-backed, very unpopular & corrupt dictatorship in the South, years of war & defeat.

I know hind sight is a wonderful thing but.

I don't know about the prospects of a US-Vietnam understanding. The US arrogantly believed that it could succeed in Vietnam where the French had failed after their humiliating defeat at Diem Bien Phu. Hubris can be a great humbler and teacher. Or maybe not.

China, along with the Soviet Union, backed and supplied Vietnam during the war in the name of the global communist revolution. Then, after splitting with Khruschev there was a rapprochement with the US due to diplomatic overtures between Kissinger and Deng. The US jumped on the chance to rub it in on the Soviets, and Deng took on a pragmatic approach with his saying along the lines of "It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice."

As a side bar, a few years back the US lifted the arms embargo on Vietnam. If for no there reason but to "upset" the Chinese. I thought it was a good example of geopolitics/Realpolitik.

IMO, the anti-war movement was really more of an anti-draft movement. If there was no draft … save for a few like Jane Fonda, Joan Baez, etc., etc., … no one generally in the US population would really care about another little tropical 3d world nation. And it's civil war. Most couldn't even find it on the map.

The elected and designated officials of the US gov't were concerned about another country going Communist. "Like China !" Or Cuba … It may be for every hard core "commie" in the NLF/VC there was probably another Vietnamese that was just a "nationalist". And joined the "commie" VC to oust another Western Power on their soil, again. That was supporting an unpopular puppet gov't.

And for irony, the crutches I got at the VA … were made in Vietnam. They are nice too !

Also as far as dodging the draft and going to Canada. @ 30,000 Canadians "against their government's laws" joined the US Military and fought in Vietnam. Talk about irony !