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"Quatre Bras 2nd Legere" Topic


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764 hits since 31 Mar 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

C M DODSON31 Mar 2018 10:51 a.m. PST

Quatre Bras question

I am about to start my re fight of Quatre Bras.

However, I am unsure about the 2nd Legere.

Adkin states that this was transferred to Bonaparte's 6th Infantry Division on the 10th June. Mr Adkin is in my opinion a fine researcher.

Meanwhile, Field and Ospray have them in action at Piramount at the commencement of the action when the 6th Division was still en route. Once again Mr Field is a fine researcher.

Has anyone got information to clarify this?

I thought modelling the landscape was complex due to contradicting information but this is bonkers.

Thank you in anticipation as I would like to get this right.

Chris

C M DODSON31 Mar 2018 10:52 a.m. PST

Quatre Bras question

I am about to start my re fight of Quatre Bras.

However, I am unsure about the 2nd Legere.

Adkin states that this was transferred to Bonaparte's 6th Infantry Division on the 10th June. Mr Adkin is in my opinion a fine researcher.

Meanwhile, Field and Ospray have them in action at Piramount at the commencement of the action when the 6th Division was still en route. Once again Mr Field is a fine researcher.

Has anyone got information to clarify this?

I thought modelling the landscape was complex due to contradicting information but this is bonkers.

Thank you in anticipation as I would like to get this right.

Chris

C M DODSON31 Mar 2018 10:54 a.m. PST

Apologies, I have no idea why this duplication of question and postings has happened.

Chris

Personal logo Whirlwind Supporting Member of TMP31 Mar 2018 11:02 a.m. PST

Not conclusive I guess, but Martinien lists 11 officer casualties for the 2nd Light for the 16th, all wounded at Ligny. He also lists a casualty for the 2nd on the 15th near Ligny.

C M DODSON31 Mar 2018 11:11 a.m. PST

Hi and thanks for your very prompt response.

I do not think the 2nd Legere were at Ligny having refought it.

link

States that 2nd Legere were with 6th Infantry Division which ties in with Adkin.

Field mentions the 95th rifles engaging the 2nd Legere at approximately 3.30 PM.

6th Infantry did not go into action until 4PM and then on the opposite flank!

How infuriating is this?

Best wishes,

Chris

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP31 Mar 2018 3:12 p.m. PST

According to "Histoire du 2e regiment d'infanterie legere" by Alexandre Dumas published by the order of the Duc D'Orleans at link
page 302 et seq says Jerome's Division arrived at 3pm (3 hours after midday)and was ordered towards Bois du Bossu.

Allan F Mountford31 Mar 2018 3:30 p.m. PST

Just a note re: Martinien. Ligny and Quatre Bras are recorded as Ligny. Quatre Bras is not distinguished as a separate action.

Personal logo Whirlwind Supporting Member of TMP31 Mar 2018 9:02 p.m. PST

@Allan,

Thank you, that makes things clearer.

Michael Westman31 Mar 2018 9:41 p.m. PST

I think Adkin copied Bowden. John Franklin, upon looking in the archives at Vincennes, discovered that the researcher for Scott Bowden misinterpreted or didn't notice that on June 10th the 2nd Legere was transferred to Bachelu's 5th Division and the 3rd Ligne was given to Jerome's 6th Division.

C M DODSON31 Mar 2018 11:36 p.m. PST

Thank you to everyone for their prompt responses.

I have been researching this action for some time and the only constant is inconsistency!

Field records the arrival of 6th Infantry as 3PM as per the wonderful regimental record.

Franklin states 4PM!

I gave the Bowden book and yes, it states the transference on the 10 th June.

Can it be taken that this transfer was in fact the other way round?

A most confusing issue.

Thank you again.

Chris

C M DODSON01 Apr 2018 2:04 a.m. PST

Sorry to go on.

Captain W Silbornes History of the Waterloo Campaign has the 2nd Legere with 5th Infantry ,Bachelu as at the 10th June returns.

Thank you all again.

Chris

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP01 Apr 2018 5:50 a.m. PST

Mea culpa should have read further back in the Histoire as page 298 clearly states 2nd legere was incorporated in Bachelu's 5th division at the commencement of the campaign.

Page 301 says the 5th Division marched by "colonne par batailion" to the right of the road towards Quatre Bras. The 9th division had 1 brigade on the road, with the other brigade in reserve. While a brigade of the 9th occupied Gemioncourt farm the 5th division crossed 2 ravines under the protection of the artillery. The division was disordered and forced to recross the 2nd ravine.

Allan F Mountford01 Apr 2018 6:04 a.m. PST

I am away from my library, but from memory according to Dawson's latest tome 1st Leger and 3rd Ligne were brigaded together in Jerome's 6th Division at Quatre Bras and Waterloo.

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP01 Apr 2018 6:33 a.m. PST

According to A F Becke "Napoleon and Waterloo"
2nd Legere was brigaded under Husson with 61st regiment de ligne; the other brigade under Campy had 72nd & 108th de ligne.
Jerome's 6th Division – Brigade Baudin 1st legere & 3rd de ligne; Brigade Soye 1st & 2nd de ligne; Foy's 9th Division – brigade Gauthier 92nd & 93rd de ligne; Brigade Jamin 4th legere and 100th de ligne.

C M DODSON01 Apr 2018 8:18 a.m. PST

Brilliant stuff. Thank you to everyone for their help.

The battlefield is finished and the pre match pictures are nearly complete.

For anyone interested the whole project to date is available on Bennoes figures forum under work in progress.

Best wishes,

Chris

Allan F Mountford01 Apr 2018 9:37 a.m. PST

Plotho (writing in 1818) has an interesting OOB for the French II Corps in that he states the organisation at 14 June 1815.

5th Division (Bachelu)
Brigade Husson – 1st & 61st Ligne
Brigade Campy – 72nd & 108th Ligne

6th Division (Jerome)
Brigade Baudin – 1st & 2nd Leger
Brigade Soye – 3rd, 1st & 2nd Ligne

7th Division (Girard)
Brigade Villiers – 3rd & 82nd Ligne
Brigade Piat – 12th Leger & 4th Ligne

9th Division (Foy)
Brigade Gauthier – 4th Leger & 92nd Ligne
Brigade Jamin – 93rd & 100th Ligne

I only add this to the discussion as it appears to represent a transitionary organisation (1st and 3rd Ligne appear twice) and lets not mention (yet) where 11th Leger comes from to replace 3rd Ligne in Brigade Villiers.

;-)

Digby Green01 Apr 2018 12:16 p.m. PST

Very interesting.
The whole Waterloo campaign histriography is full of errors and inconsistencies.
The fact is that wargamers have a very logical and precise viw of things, so they notice such discrepancies, whereas authors may not.
Eg I am putting Scott Bowden's orders of battle into a data base and many errors and omissions show up, that he would never have seen with out such a tool.
Its also a question of did some authors do any research or merely just copy the book before them, and the books they had available?

Prince of Essling Supporting Member of TMP01 Apr 2018 1:43 p.m. PST

Henri Houssaye's "1815 Waterloo" Note 55 to Chapter 2 – on page 331 gives 2nd Corps OoB(estimate of 10 June, War archive):

Bachelu 5th Division
Brigades Husson & Campy
2nd light; 61st, 72nd & 108th line
Jerome 6th Division
Brigades Baudin & Soye
1st Light, 3rd, 1st & 2nd line
Foy 8th Division
Brigades – Gauthier & Jamin
92nd, 93rd& 100th line, 4th light
Girard 7th Division
Brigades – Devilliers & Piat
11th light, 82nd line, 12th light & 4th line

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