"UK show scene - touching a nerve?" Topic

This topic seems to have stimulated a bit of consensus although I am not sure how some clubs who run shows might see it..

link

I'll let you know after Salute in a few weeks time.

that is somewhat atypical and more of a feeding frenzy

It's always hard to know from one viewpoint – is it the show that has gone bad, or the commentator who has become jaded? The people in the photos don't look so very unhappy.

Interesting reading. Thanks for sharing.

Could be comments about any HMGS show here in the States?
Must be universal?

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Since the main example given was a show in Germany, maybe the post title is a bit inaccurate?

DBDD

Those sorts of complaints have been commonplace ever since Wargames shows were invented. The issues described are no different than those which afflicted the old Model Engineering Exhibition back in the 1970s, let alone Salute in its old venue.

The back pack totting punters are the punters? What are you going to do ban backpacks? I don't wear a backpack by the way.
Resellers? A trader is going to sell is wares. How do you decide who has the monopoly on one product?
Parking is problematic at many shows not just wargaming ones.
Table jostled? No support for game demonstrators?, I have attended many shows over many years and ran participation and demonstration games and never felt short changed by organisers. In fact help was always offered and more given if asked. Ive seen many demonstration games viewed as a free day out by its displayers, who don't even contribute to the charity bucket,ran by people honestly rude to punters with a horde of no entry paying hangers on.
Honestly I think that the post is a bit elitist.
So you want a limit on attendance? Maybe a selection process on entrants (Back packs, Are you a table jostler?) Traders only to trade if their goods meet a certain criteria?
Not so long ago there were complaints about non attendance at shows.
Wargaming in the UK has never been so popular or varied don't knock it.

If our situation is any indication of a wider problem, then finding a solution is not easy.

I'm slightly involved in that tiny show called Crisis.

We started off over two decades ago in a tiny backroom of the local boy scout club, we then had the show at a local sports center and for the next few years our venue was at a community center where we ended up putting one of the major traders in a broom cupboard for lack of space.

The move to a business center/converted parking space brought much needed extra space, but a substantial increase in cost with things like mandatory catering service by a third party. Yes they brought in nice young men and women to serve at the bar, but we ended up paying their wages and all the overhead they could muster. Because it had been designed as a parking lot and used mostly for various events where dimmed light was considered more than appropriate, the fact you couldn't tell the difference between a 28mm Orc and a 15mm M4A3 forced us to put up extra light in the waning days of the incandescent bulb this meant cranking out several thousand watts worth of extra light and mostly heat that combined with the bunker-like structure to make it feel like a sauna. In later years they did add air conditioning and we did get a few moments of relief, but more often than it was more of a futile gesture than a true improvement.

I remember that when we moved to our current venue the size increase seemed infinite, even a fraction of the first hall was bigger than our previous venue. People started to dream that we could cram everything and more in the first hall and have room to stage a horse parade, a three-ring circus and maybe even have an indoor demolition derby.

Our club president was called a madman in his face when he hired part of hall two for a show whose trader tally exceeded the previous one by about three. "You're throwing money out of the window !", "We always managed with a fraction of the space and you're driving up the cost !!!"

Except that in the previous venue the room between tables had shrunk to the level that those young slim women who advertise weight loss products by slipping through narrow places would have been put to the test, let alone people with the imposing athletic bulk of a typical wargamer. The extra space didn't mean extra traders and room to spare, we finally were able to allow for room for people to get through.

You might think that after running a show for twenty plus years we have it figured out, but the situation is that there is not a lot of leeway left.

When I look at the number of spaces available to run any kind of event you find that the number of the cheap/free smaller venues like church halls or youth organizations are no longer profitable and are being sold off usually to be redeveloped into more profitable projects.

In the middle range we find that the two or three alternatives we did consider at some point have all gone in the meanwhile, either the owners sold it off, died or let it go to waste, or have gone mad and demand exorbitant fees that are not in line with the kind of show and revenue we can achieve.

The vagaries of our hobby mean that there is a problem between the size potential in terms of traders and the amount of gamers we manage to draw. In other words we have grown to the point we need a very large venue, but sadly we only draw so many paying visitors. Our hobby simply isn't that big that we can expect to double or triple our numbers, it will never happen and there is no room to add more popular stuff like videogames or pop-culture comic book convention stuff that pulls far greater numbers and the main question of course, can we afford to set up a show like that and not alienate our core public ?

"Oh, they want to rake in the big money and we'll be out in three years."

One knows that this kind of talk will dominate the show and this only leads to diminishing returns.

And then there is the problem of the size of the venue. As I said we get a massive acreage of traders and we could easily boost this, but the problem is that larger venues have raised the bar that many niche shows like wargaming find almost impossible to bridge, you can only only raise prices for traders so much before it becomes no longer profitable for them, and like I said, getting more people through the door is problematic at best and raising the ticket price means you inevitably have a drop off in entries that means any gains you make one end are lost the other.

We are fighting a constant battle to get things right, and despite our best efforts and apparently years of experience, every show is a challenge with unexpected problems to be hurdled, managed and hopefully taken into consideration by the next one.

And then there is the problem of who do we take in ? At what point do we crank back on demo games to allow in more traders from the list of people begging us on bare knees to get in.

At some point I remarked that our show evolved from having to beg a handful of traders to do the mad thing and attend a tiny show in mainland Europe to one where people ask us what our terms and conditions are to attend as if they were were talking with their bank manager about that mortgage or concluding some major business deal with a immensely powerful tycoon.

Believe it or not, we're ordinary wargamers in a ratty old clubhouse that is being held together with string, spit and some prayers, we have a leaky roof that is too tricky for us to fix and too cheap for a builder to even bother show his nose. Our tables are hardly the height of luxury and yes, unpainted plastics march alongside vintage glossy minifigs veterans of more battles than any sane soldier would ever want to fight.

We got lucky, somehow we did something right, pleased the gods of wargaming and hobble along, running our yearly show that apparently happened to fill a vacuum, we never thought in a million years or even set out to create a show of a certain notoriety and despite the rumors I have heard, no, we did no invest time and money to create an elaborate experience to spite one or two specific people of a paranoid mindset who are absolutely convinced that we created Crisis only to spite them personally and make their life miserable.

Humility can only go so far, I have always nudged everyone to both be proud of what we achieved and reminded them we are but a tiny niche hobby club that runs a yearly event that is easily matched by people who run a car boot sale/fleamarket twice a month with a similar number of traders and greater attendance. But we are a big fish in a small pond, we do carry some weight, but that doesn't mean we should ever, even once look down upon anyone else in the hobby, we're all in this together and we're not that different from many other wargamers other than some of us speak in funny accents and that's the ones who pretend to be British, let alone all the Belgian, Dutch, French, German and American members we have.

Behind the scenes we have people who work off their butt and have worn the fingerprints of their fingers to keep in touch with everyone interested and have tried to keep them informed, listen to what they had to say and get all the feedback for good or worse, all our members who help to set up a show that sees more pallets of tables and chairs to set up year upon year, while we don't get any younger, the people who have to stock all the equipment we use to provide catering, and those that do provide food and drink, man the info stand, help to load and unload or fix any problem from medication to finding a tool to fix a critical part of a trading stand …

We fight a constant battle trying to find the right mix of traders, give opportunities to new companies, innovation and offer the best possible mix. Yes we are aware some at the end of day are rolling in money, others barely break even and some sadly don't seem to reach customers in the way they expected.

We are aware that the preparation of food has to be done in the same hall as the rest of the show for lack of a dedicated space, we know that not every spot in the show gets the same amount of visitors because that's how the building is laid out, every single year we have to rethink ways to improve the experience of our staggeringly successful bring and buy inside an already limited space under constant pressure to have to expand the array of traders. We are aware that the show is now reaching a point where it's hard to cover everything in one day and no, a second day is not an option.

I'm keenly aware that it might all be over some day, every show we do is one less of all the potential ones that will ever happen. It might be all over in a few years if some politicians blow up all the conveniences that have been set up to facilitate trade and travel around Europe, all of which greatly contributed to the success of our show. But we are cautiously optimistic and if not, the boy scout hall is still available …

Well said Patrick R.

Patrick, your show was NOT on my list! :)

As you know I have always rated CRISIS and its organization otherwise I wouldn't make the costly trip every year from Scotland. Bearing in mind the constraints you are under in a city centre venue and the antique and utilitarian nature of the building, your team produce a miracle each year. Nonetheless, some of the other issues remain as general points regardless of the country in which a show takes place – the Reseller plague being chief amongst those and a tendency to continue to cram in as much as possible whether that be worthy of seeing or not. I am still traumatised by seeing about 400 unpainted plastic airfix Napoleonics fresh off the sprue laid out on a grey army blanket at a show in the North East a few years ago. I didn't pay money at the door to see that.

And yes, I would ban backpacks but not just from wargames shows :)

For those who have not been involved in organising a show there are a few things you need to know. Venues cost money, a lot of money. To pay for this the organiser needs to charge the trade and the visitor. If you charge too much to the trade they stop coming, if they stop coming then so do the visitors. If you charge too much to the visitor then they stop coming then the trade stop. Getting the balance right is very difficult. The type of venue available with the required features and affordable is pretty limited. Parking is always an issue, venues close to city centres and public transport tend to have limited or expensive parking, venues with plenty of parking tend to be in more remote areas. Remember that the people organising these events are like you. They do this once a year, for no pay, in addition to their full time job and family commitments as well as trying to organise traders, which is like herding cats. How difficult is it to return a booking form? For some traders this seems to be a major exercise. Finally banning back packs, another great way of reducing attendance. People go to shows in the UK mainly to buy things 1st and look at/play games 2nd. As someone who has put on participation games for over 20 years I know this for a fact. If you think that people are going to the show to see your beautifully crafted game, then you are deluding yourself. It is an added attraction, but not the main one, especially if it is a demonstration game. As those of us who attend lots of shows each year many of these are either vanity projects or excuses to get a full day/2 days gaming in. I have never had problems with people with backpacks at my games, and hopefully haven't done any damage with my own. Complain about resellers, don't grumble about prices then. Wargamers are cheap, they always want a deal or a bargain, so if someone is selling a box of plastics or resin at 20 to 25% off then they are going to buy them, human nature. If a show is crowded that is because it is popular, if it is easy to wander around and spend ages at different stands and games enjoy it whilst you can, because that show will not be there for long.

jocknroll
How much did you pay at the door to see unpainted Airfix? £2.50 GBP- £3.00 GBP It traumatised you? Come on! Was that the only thing there? Maybe some people would find it reassuring that its ok to play with unpainted figures. It is- its only toy soldiers.
Like I said Ive put on many games and spent hours preparing figures, scenery, rules etc.. but the above unpainted game would just make me chuckle at most.
You said yourself you don't belong to a club but these shows are all staged by clubs? Have you ever been involved in organising a show? The above posts show the difficulties involved.
I really don't know what you expect for what in most cases is a few quid entrance and if you are putting on a game your not paying to get in anyway. You even bemoan that the organising clubs don't put on impressive games. Its usually because they give the space to others and all their members are running round like blue arsed flies organising the show.
Traders when organising a show are often a pain in the arse and yes Ive traded at shows. If there is no room for them they complain often in the Wargames Press complaining about favouritism etc, when in fact there is just no room left, demand power points that don't often exist, bigger tables, prime spots, don't return their forms as noted above, don't pay their fees.
Reselling then don't sell your stuff trade!
Likewise people putting on games complain not big enough tables, I don't want to be in that room etc usually the "demo" ones who have no real intention of interacting with anyone.
I'm really surprised that so many people continue to put on shows, I don't now I don't even get the time to game much but have friends that do organise a major show and it soaks up a large part of their free time unpaid,they generally do it to promote and out of a love for the hobby.
But like you've said your only going to some shows now so why worry about the others?

Who is grumbling about prices? not me

Re backpacks – as an alternative to a ban, stipulate that they be worn on the front. I've seen school parties do this and avoid hitting anyone and anything in stately homes.

Attendance is entirely optional.

I'm not convinced by much of what is in that piece, but I wholeheartedly detest backpacks, having been (a) bashed several times by careless folk and their packs that wouldn't look out of place on a Royal Marines yomp across the Falklands and (b) had a parti game table virtually demolished by a careless backpacker a few years back.

I appreciate that most UK wargamers are at a show to shop and also that some probably wouldn't be that upset if there weren't actually any games there, but a little care and consideration wouldn't go amiss. and the "front pack" idea is a good one. Or do what I do, find a friend with a stand or a game where you can leave your pack, go and shop without giving yourself back strain and return your goodies to your pack occasionally. Perhaps the bigger shows could consider a "backpack creche"? :)

PS I have nothing but admiration for anyone who puts on a show. I've been involved in organising and running a few and on reflection I really disliked it a lot. Well done to those of you who persevere

Dear Jocknroll.
I pretty much disagree with your blog piece, for many of the reasons stated by others here.
What I would add is the subjective nature of your Blog article. You and Tricks engage in a mutual 'love in' as regards Partizan, so I presume like Crisis you didn't include that show in your criticism. Yet Partizan at Kelham was moaned about more than any other show in my experience (as someone who talks to wargamers all day everyday LOL). Those criticisms need not be brought up here because the venue change put an end to them all, but my point is the show you'd have saved is the one many others would have not been sorry to see go.

The other point I don't agree with is that there are too many shows in the UK. I'm actually baffled to hear traders come out with that statement. Is it just me, if a trader thinks there are too many shows……….don't go to as many? I've had this conversation with many a trader over the past 28years and I've told them I don't accept it. I think shows are an important part of the 'community', and as this thread shows, the envy of gamers in other countries. A big test of this will be later this year, when we have 2 shows at the same venue in the same small provincial town in a 30 day period. If both are a success, how can there be 'too many shows' in the UK?

Nick

Just back from the Classic Car Restoration show at the NEC

£21.00 GBP entry fee. £12.00 GBP parking. £5.50 GBP ham roll. £2.20 GBP bottle of coke

For a show that provided very little in the way of involvement for the punter. No participation games (restorations), little in the way of demos. A load of display games (car clubs showing their cars).

Busy though.

Frankly, whilst I think a discussion of Wargames shows is always healthy, I personally don't think entrance prices are too bad for the local shows, and the spectacle is pretty good to. I think the hobby must be in rude health

I didn't pay money at the door to see that.

I think that was interpreted as "grumbling about prices".

DBDD

Dear NorthStarNick,

You clearly deserve to be recognized in the New Year's Honours List for services to the community. All day, every day…. Man you must have the patience of Job.

Since you and I will cross swords across the green baize at some point in the next two weeks I will resist the well baited lure here and reserve my riposte(s) for that portentous occasion mon ami!

Darrell, maybe you'd enjoy paying money to look at a blanket, alas if that is grumbling about prices then, yes in that case guilty as charged, otherwise whether it be show or product, I would not. I could alternatively stay at home and do a Tracey Emin by looking at my own bed and paying myself £4.00 GBP

I read the blog post and it was very interesting. I think that any venture can run into problems when it becomes too successful. Many small businesses fail when they reach the point where they have to expand and UK wargames shows might be seeing the same problem with the same result.
I'm not sure if there are too many wargames shows in the UK but perhaps there are too many of the same type. These are the traditional shows with a mix of traders, demo games of all types and a few participation games. What might be more interesting would be to see a greater variety of shows with different themes or purposes e.g more shows like US conventions where all the games are participatory and the whole thing is residential over a couple of days, a show which has very few traders but a very big flea market, like some of the wargames car boot sales but also with some games to watch or play or shows specialising in a particular genre or figure size like the Joy of 6 show or a show combining RPGs, boardgames, and wargames. There are some events like these but they aren't widespread.
The issue about backpacks is a valid one. Do you really need to take a large backpack to a show? Most people who attend the major Scottish shows,Carronade or Claymore probably drive (neither show venue is in a city centre) so could probably use carrier bags for their show shopping and occaisionally dump them back at their cars. If people couldn't manage to carry thier shopping in an ordinary carrier bag then maybe a bag dump or left luggage room could be organised?
I would also agree that there are probably too many resellers at most shows. Do you really need more than one or two? Then the space could be used for other things.
Finally, I think that show organisers should have defined standards. Their shows are public exhibitions charging an admission fee so it's reasonable to expect to see things of a certain standard for that fee. Far too many demo games are very poor and of the sort of cobbled together game you can see on club night at any UK wargames club. Anything you display in public should be your best effort possible, after all the intent should be to impress your onlookers. Poorly presented games make both the clubs presenting them and the club hosting the show look lazy or incompetant.

Defined standards? most shows are run by small clubs. There not ran by events companies.And how would show organisers enforce standards of games? Please I'm interested?, "you must send us pictures or regular updates on your progress and we will decide at the last moment whether you can attend" that sort of thing?
Ive been to shows where all the games are supposed to be participation only and people still turn up and put on a "demo" game. So what are the organisers to do evict them?
And ok people should show there best. But if one of the aims of shows is to recruit new "blood" from the public shouldn't it also be ok to show "lesser" setups, which in reality are far more common.
The Wargames press has had this elitist argument for years, what you see in WI isn't what you generally see at clubs or on some ones kitchen table.
Ive put on many games mostly participation some demo all were in my own view well presented, with very well painted figures, scratch made scenery to a high standard but Ive seen some simple looking poorly presented games with interesting ideas behind them if you looked closer. Some people just cant paint or model well so are they to be totally excluded from the show circuit?

Really how much are most entrance fees-negligible.
Although plenty try to dodge them.

Traders already complain as Ive said above. How are you going to decide who trades and what, are you going to say to a trader "Somebody else is already selling that -so no table for you"
The club hosting the show lazy and incompetent? These are joe blogs organising it all in their spare time. Have you read any of the above posts from people who organise these shows?

I'm sorry -so all right there is the odd crap game -too many boxes of Perry Napoleonic British for sale. But for a few quid and a day out?

Many events are organised by very small comittees, not much bigger than a wargames club. Defined standards are easy to do if you invite clubs and have clear and simple rules e.g. no blankets, no plain felt cloths, no felt templates, no felt or tape roads or rivers, all figs must be painted.
As for traders, again have a set number of slots for each type. So if there are only two slots for resellers and they fill up, the rest get turned away.
I also don't get the "it doesn't matter if the game looks crap if it's good idea" arguement. Miniature Wargaming is above all a VISUAL hobby. I won't stop to investigate a game if it looks crap, no matter how interesting it may be under the surface and I don't think I'm alone in doing that.
Finally, I don't get the arguement that having good looking games somehow intimidates new people from wargaming or that crap looking public games represent more realistically the UK club scene. Many of the games put on at my local club, the Glasgow G3, while not of top show standard are much better looking than some of the crap games I've seen at public shows. That's because it's very easy now to buy good looking affordable wargames terrain. Why use a blanket or a plain green baize cloth when you can buy a really nice printed one, made and fit for purpose? The reason for poorly presented games at shows are easy: One, people can get away with doing them and two, some people just can't be bothered making a real effort.

Ok, I concede, it's all day Monday to Friday. I'm usually Wargamer conversation free at weekends unless it's a show (or on TMP on a Sunday morning!)

You can define standards but people then turn up without addressing that criteria what do you do then turn them all away? Because they will turn up.Tell them to leave offending scenery off? Empty tables…

Like I said I always did my best and put a lot of hours into it. Yes its very visual for me. It may be totally visual for you and others but everyone?
Plenty of demo games don't even move or are not played so are they wargames? or poor dioramas?. Ive seen plenty of pretty demo games whose displayers admitted they never actually play. So should they be in a Wargames show?

What youre asking is that all games presented must be of a "suitable" criteria. Whose criteria?
What if somebody wants to present a Krieg spiel game? Or a game which uses printed cards for units. Or a large Hex Counter type wargame. Are these not wargames? What if the figures are just painted one colour per side eg red and blue and used as representations of formations,
Because its Grand Tactical for one reason..
What if the figures are really badly painted?

And you've already written off some terrain what about expensive terrain tiles that are all green. With matching green hills not much different to a green cloth.

Its elitism and has long existed in wargames circles.
You wont get articles printed in some of the Wargames Press if you don't have suitable lovely glossy pictures. No matter what the content.
I know of clubs that never used to allow people to field plastic figures, before the modern sets.

Like somebody said above if you don't like it don't attend, if a show becomes unpopular it will fold.

But really say you pay £4.00 GBP to get in and 50% of the games you see don't match your standard go and ask for £2.00 GBP back?

Several of the above un-enforceable standards' have been/ are being used by organizers.

I was asked for references and photos before being 'allowed' to appear at York and at Tactica.

I know of organizers who ask what products will be carried by traders in order to get the right mix.

If you go to a US convention it must be a participation game or you dont get in. A certain standard of 'Games Master' competence is expected, none of your sweaty bike racks bent over the table ignoring the punters.

Interestingly, some of the best overall experiences are at some (not all) of these types of events. If setting the bar at a reasonable level is Elitism, let's have some more. In the age of everybody's a winner, give a prize to the last kid in the race and don't upset anyone because we are all 'unique and sensitive' a lot of dreck is getting under the wire as acceptable when it is clearly -not.

So, de facto, these criteria do exist and are being used. Check your facts.

It's really simple. If you are organising a show then you supply the criteria for what you want and you set the standards. If people turn up and try to present a game which doesn't meet those standards the game doesn't go on, even if that means an empty table and the people concerned are named and shamed. If you have criteria you have to enforce it. Do it a few times and you'll get the message across.
If you want different types of game presented other than traditional miniature wargames then have criteria for them too and define how many or what other types of game you want.
Expensive terrain tiles look good even if they are solid green, a plain green baize cloth or an old army blanket just looks like cheap crap.
The cost of entry to a show may be negligable but the cost of the entire trip to that show may not be so attendees have to know that what they will see at a show will justify their cost and effort.
Finally, how is doing something with a proper level of effort "elitist"?

Darrell, maybe you'd enjoy paying money to look at a blanket,

Did I say that? I don't think I said that. I just said your remark could be interpreted as grumbling about prices. I didn't criticise you for that.

DBDD

Glad I clarified then

Naming and shaming? Interesting on a few points that! Definition of numbers of types of games?

What about the small games at a show the one man and his green Airfix Sherman, a grid and some cards. Yea it looks crap but hes full of enthusiasm and got some really clever mechanics under there? Maybe hes not and its all crap and you think hmmmm. But instantly dismissed?

So you want only aesthetically pleasing set piece boring displays with no depth past the eye candy, couple of minutes looking then move on,because that's what most demo games are.

Proper participation games yes Ive been to all Participation Games shows as I said above. You still get demo gamers showing up with no real intention of entertaining anyone but themselves do you kick them out an hour into the show when its obviously so.

and Ive played in many participation games that wouldn't win prizes for aesthetics which were far better wargames than some that just really looked pretty with a bit of moving about. And as a judge awarded prizes to such low visual games.

Ive also seen great looking games win prizes simply because they looked good but there was no real game there and the people running them well….

What you want in my eye is blandness, yes its great to see fantastic looking games and appreciate the effort. (Ive later represented a manufacturer at shows because they liked a game I put on because of its look.) So I well understand the visual spectacle.Ive also judged painting competitions asked to because I can paint pretty well I guess. So I get all the Wargames Porn! Ive had a chuckle at things Ive seen but it doesn't traumatise me.

Real effort is actually scratch built terrain not using commercial items should we go that route?,
not having the money to stick down pretty affordable terrain with some well painted figures on a printed fleece mat. Thats not really much of an effort either.It just means you can afford that.

In fact some years ago some people were on about banning commercial terrain tiles, because they were to samey, from demo games and allowing only scratch built terrain.

Ive been to plenty of shows where two or three games are using the same basic terrain and apart from the figures look pretty similar. What do you do ban a couple?.

I guess it comes down why you want to go to a show? I don't want to go to a show just to see pretty games and I think that if all they become is show spots for a certain "quality" of "game" I wont attend. They will be boring.

As for resellers so first two in rest out ok but I don't really get it. You going to have one type of paint stockist, one type of rules stockist. Where does it stop?. I saw a major manufacturer walk out of a show with all stock because somebody else was selling his stuff cheaper -he sold them that stock!

As someone said above Wargamers are cheap- most people buy from the cheapest supplier. Whether at a show or on line.

My stance on it being Elitist isn't to give everyone a prize or congratulate everyone its that your pushing for one type of Wargaming acceptable to you and you don't want too see the rest.

Yup, what you want is pretty clear, thanks for that.

Touched a nerve?

Touched a few, I think

DBDD

Not with me gentlemen, perhaps elsewhere. I had all my nerves removed along time ago

Sounds like a case of backpacks at dawn. Stand 10 paces apart, about turn and reverse into each other. The loser is the one who cannot access the bring and buy whilst mumbling to oneself and poking every item without buying any of them … all without the aid of soap or deodorant.

In the standard uniform of faded black T shirt.

I have been doing shows as a display team for more than 20 years. It is our ethos that our games should look plausible to the avarage punter. Scratch built special to purpose i.e for show use, taking many hours not what most of could aspire too and perhaps ofputtong to beginners. We aim to show folks what it may be possible to do with a modest outlay (say equivalnt of one army) and get a playable and perfectly acceptable game. Yes we use tha same basic terrain system as a base, its the same one we use every week! That to us what wargames is about, playing regularly on reasonable terrain not unobtainable art too which some of us look and say not practical and walk on, each to our own I suggest shows need both types to cater for all tastes.

We invite folk fo join in but very few do. Our observation of participationm game is that they for no obvious reason somtimes suceed really well and somtimes fail to gain attendence despite excelent efforts. That is neither the demo team or the show organisers fault.

The issue for British shows is that many, if not most, of those attending only blitz the trade stands for a couple of hours then go home. It's a morning shopping trip and not a day out anymore. Therefore little attention is given to either demo or participation games by a lot of those attending.
I can't really understand why clubs are still organising the shows…not that they do a bad job particularly but the trade should be doing it surely?

I agree with the elitist comments. Gamers today have everything handed to them on a plate-at a price. Yes, I'm an old f""t from the early dawn of wargaming. From the days of when you couldn't buy it, you made it, (or attempted to!). Not everyone, particularly new starters, have the deep pockets required to purchase expensive terrain or figures. Do we bar the poor from shows? "Show me what's in your wallet, if it's not £50.00 GBP, then you're not getting in" I agree wholeheartedly with andysyk. There are almost as many levels and styles of wargames as there are wargamers. It's whatever floats your boat. Why should someone not play on a felt sheet, perhaps £15.00 GBP-20, rather than a bespoke mat costing £50.00 GBP+, does it make the game better? If it offends thy eye, then don't go (or pluck it out!)

No one bleats louder than someone with an inflated sense of his own self importance who is not being treated with the reverence he expects.

@bobm1959
Trade is doing it too, Pendraken run the Stockton show in the North East.
I suspect most clubs run shows for many reasons, not least of which is raising a little revenue to boost club funds, pay rent, or buy club tarrain etc

Crikey boys and girls, it's playing with toy soldiers. Some neanderthal with a backpack pushes into me I push back or swivel them out of the way using the helpful straps. Carrying a can of squaddie wash and using liberally usually helps the atmosphere when applied to the offender….

Some of the above may not actually be true…

Well this novel. We don't normally have this type of conversation until the annual Salute autopsy.

It appears like Easter, it's early this year!

OP believed he'd found consensus. Not so much here when his learned pronouncements were exposed to a wider audience. Seems like his blog was a bit of a safe space or echo chamber.

Liked your pithy summing up btw Dave

The issue for British shows is that many, if not most, of those attending only blitz the trade stands for a couple of hours then go home. It's a morning shopping trip and not a day out anymore.

Have you ever been to Hammerhead bobm1959? If not then I recommend you try it, you'll see people shopping yes, but also staying all day playing games and enjoying themselves. It'll be full, very full, as it has become more popular every year it has been going until last year it had to introduce another hall to take the games and traders waiting to attend, but the venue and layout means that it isn't a crush, except sometimes around the tabletop sale but that goes with the course really.It happens to be in the same venue as Partizan, I presume that it is the show alluded to by nicknorthstar when he mentions 2 shows in the same provincial town within 30 days of each other? Apart from some of the traders probably being mostly the same ones at both shows from past experience, the shows themselves will be completely different in that Hammerhead is entirely participation games whilst Partizan aims to provide as they say in their publicity 'only the best games' which for some reason means virtually all of them are demo games, where nothing moves most of the time unless you happen to be one of the fortunate few who are putting the demo game on ,or know the people involved. As mentioned somewhere above Kelham was IMO and that of my friends pretty dire for putting on a wargames show. We always came away feeling that we'd missed something, and it usually transpired that we had.
I asked Tricks on fb over a period of time on several occasions when the show was going to move to Newark Showground because it was a far better venue,(Hammerhead proved that) and the reply was always the same one, "we like it at Kelham". If they hadn't been forced to move the show would probably still be there, stagnating (unless you're a member of the elite club of wargaming royalty ).
George Stephenson Hall at Newark Showground is far better, the doors are wider so that some people can get their egos in undamaged.

This is my reply to a comment made by a friend of Mr Hilton on his blog about raising standards and seeking to show the 'best figures' and 'best terrain' etc. I thought I would post it here as most of you will have already read the rest of the comments on the blog, or not bothered and just read the blog itself and the comments on here instead. So I just cut and pasted this as I think it is pertinent to the general discussion, one we've been having on here for some time now about the hobby and how to keep it alive and moving on for future generations to enjoy, particularly in respect of conventions and shows and who they appeal to and why.

With regard to your comments Peter about us seeking the best of everything, be it figures, terrain etc and the sight of unpainted or half painted figures, I'd just like to make a small point if I may?
My future stepson is 10 years old. Like many boys his age he plays with airfix soldiers, unpainted, as well as lots of model tanks which you can buy ready painted these days off eBay for a modest sum. Since I am an avid gamer and frequent as many shows as I can within reasonable travelling distance of my home each year he has been to many with me, and plays wargames with myslef and my friends whenever he gets the opportunity (which unfortunately isn't very often because his mother and I live an hour and a half apart). Because he was born prematurely the tendons on his right hand aren't properly developed and he will have to have an operation on his hand later in life to allow him to be able to move his fingers properly. This makes things like holding a painting brush very awkward for him and although I've tried encouraging him he is reluctant to try painting even the most basic of things because he says he can't paint.
This problem of not being able to paint very well affects many people, I attended a local club once with a view to joining only to find half the tables were covered in unpainted 40k figures and space marines. For some it is lack of time to paint, for others lack of skill, for others both,for many it is the lack of funds to be able to afford to buy ready painted figures, even ones off eBay that look like they were painted by a blind man with no thumbs, the so called 'pro-painted' stuff we see wheeled out on there regularly.
My future stepson may well take up wargaming as a hobby when he grows up, I certainly hope so, and he will one day (but not for another 20 years at least hopefully as I'm only in my 50s)inherit from me a fine collection of very well painted figures, but if they are not of the scale or periods which interest him his choice is going to be limited to using unpainted figures, or having to buy ready painted ones. I have no idea what profession he will follow in later life, but should he be unlucky and not find employment which allows him a decent amount of disposable income then no matter how much he aspires to raising the bar and achieving the best figures and scenery he will be unable to do so.
Wargaming has many levels, and it needs young blood to keep filling the traders coffers and shows from dwindling and dying. By all means have 'the best' but don't forget the grass roots and what keeps the hobby from dying out. Participation games are one way of doing this, and something he really looks forward to, Hammerhead being our favourite show on the wargames circuit. Looking at shows which simply contain table after table of impeccably painted 'museum quality' figures doesn't really inspire your younger gamer, they want something they can actually do. Whilst these demo games are nice wargamers porn for us older types, they are also pretty boring after a while I find. Unless the demonstrators go out of their way to actually engage with the punters then what is their point? It just becomes a line of tables with people showing how deep their pockets are and how much spare time they have, something most of us have neither of. In that respect it all then becomes a turn off and we find ourselves passing these games with a cursory glance whilst looking for items to purchase instead.There may well be stuff out there on display which makes us go Wow!but we know in our heads we cannot hope to get anywhere near that standard of finish ourselves, so it doesn't matter how much you seek to raise the bar the vast majority cannot hope to emulate it and know that.That in turn leads to a 'them and us' type of scenario, where the lucky few of wargaming's royalty display their worth whilst the rest of us shuffle past bleating and don't become engaged or driven to raise our own, sometimes pitiful, standards.

Volleyfire, I agree with you completely. It is, IMHO, a great pity that, somewhere since the days of Featherstone and Wise, the idea took hold that wargaming was about producing diorama-standard terrain and figures, rather than about playing an entertaining, challenging yet sociable game.

Military modelling is also an absorbing hobby, but the two don't have to be combined (unless one so desires).