"USS Essex versus HMS Phoebe challenge match" Topic
8 Posts
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Blutarski | 15 Mar 2018 9:01 a.m. PST |
Something new to stir the gaming juices. Captain Hillyar of HMS Phoebe and Captain Porter of USS Essex were actually acquainted with one another, having met when both were on station in the Mediterranean. During Hillyar's blockade of USS Essex in the neutral port of Valparaiso, he communicated a challenge to Porter offering to meet at sea beyond Chilean territorial waters in a one-on-one battle (i.e., HMS Cherub to take no part). Porter declined. But what if he had accepted? Now that everyone has read Sam Willis's book ….. ARMAMENT Consider the carronade-armed Essex as having a broadside value of 9C + 1L and Phoebe 4L + 2C (L = long guns C = carronades). Carronades limited to 300 yards effective range. SPEED Assume Essex faster by 10pct. TACTICAL POSITION Open Sea, but N/S coastline lying 3 miles to the E. Wind from SW. Essex emerges from Valparaiso to find Phoebe lying heaved to directly to the W. Both captains are determined to fight to a conclusion. Tell me how the two captains will handle and fight their ships. I will run the scenario on my game table according to input from poster and report results on this thread. B
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DeRuyter | 15 Mar 2018 10:04 a.m. PST |
Essex also lost her main top mast I believe whilst trying to escape. Sounds like in your scenario this would not be the case. Porter obviously wants to close the range to fight with his carros. His problem in your tactical set up is that Hillyar has the weather gauge. Hillyar having the wind in his favor at the start controls the battle and will want to fight at longer range. Perhaps he would try and disable Essex's rigging before she could close the range. I know it is against Nelsonian tactics which was to lay alongside the enemy, but in this case Hillyar knew he was outgunned by weight of metal at close range. Porter could initially use his 12 pdrs to also try and disable Phoebe's rigging in order to close the range. (in the actual battle he did some damage to Cerub with the long 12s) |
Blutarski | 15 Mar 2018 4:24 p.m. PST |
Hi DeRuyter, First of all, apologies for mis-characterizing the speed advantage of Essex as "10 percent". That value applies to maximum possible speed achievable under optimum wind condition (quarter reach @ topgallant gale). In light winds the differential may get as high as 20 percent. I am pretty confident that Essex could gain the wind advantage, by fore-reaching and tacking. Once Phoebe was fighting from the lee position, she would have try hard to keep out of carronade range. B
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Wolfhag | 19 Mar 2018 3:15 p.m. PST |
The sounds really interesting but I'd only qualify as a Powder Monkey in this game. Wolfhag |
Bombay Marine | 21 Mar 2018 1:43 p.m. PST |
Having researched the Age of Sail since 1972, I find it's better to look for the effective range of weapons in battle. I've got three examples of carronade-armed vessels firing from different ranges. Time and space keep me from listing all three now. In each of these "battles" only one broadside was fired, so it allows us to analyze the crew casualties. Pages 443-444 of "The Naval War of 1812: A Documentary History" presents Captain David Porter's final report on his capture of HMS Alert. HMS Alert- 393 tons, 16-18#c, 2-9#. 100 crew. USS Peacock- Broadside 20-32#c, 3-12#. Peacock fired a raking broadside from musket shot range. Historian and novelist Dudley Pope, in his "Life in Nelson's Navy" defines musket shot range as 200 yds. I've also seen it quoted as short as 100 yds. So, what were the casualties after one broadside. Porter reports Alert's loss as 3 badly wounded and 2 slightly wounded. The vessel had two guns disabled and seven feet of water, due to being hulled. Grand total- 5 casualties. It's interesting to note how this broadside would play out in an Age of Sail war game. Using a roll of 50, and the ship data in the rules Heart of Oak, One sees the Peacock inflicting 25 casualties on the Alert, for one broadside at 200 yds. Using a figure of 3.67 casualties per actual hit on an unrated vessel, I got a total of 12.85 casualties for one broadside in Post Captain. If there is interest, I'll do something similar with the results for two other vessels in the War of 1812. |
Blutarski | 21 Mar 2018 7:35 p.m. PST |
You're my kinda guy, Bombay Marine :-) Re "Musket Shot", my homework turned up an impressively broad range of cited values – from 200 yards to 400 yards. William James gives the figure of 400 yards in the glossary of his "Naval History of Great Britain". I settled upon a median value of 300 yards for my rules. The only HMS Alert I know of having taken part in the War of 1812 was captured by the USS Essex in August 1812. Your mention of Captain Porter fits as do the number of broadside guns enumerated, so I'm guessing Peacock should be read as Essex. While I agree that Essex delivered a single discharge of her guns, it is not clear to me that she necessarily discharged an entire broadside or that the fire was (in the clinical sense) of a truly raking nature. Contemporary historical sources differ in details … very frustrating sometimes. FWIW, my own AoS rules indicates that a single non-raking hulling fire broadside of twenty 32-lbr (American weight) single-shotted carronades at Musket Shot distance with average dice score would inflict an estimated 12-13 casualties based upon a crew of 100 aboard (the rules do not, however, require tracking of crew casualties as part of game play). B
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Bombay Marine | 22 Mar 2018 11:04 a.m. PST |
Sorry, I had the data for three battles before me, and I let my haste screw me up. I also blew the figure for Post Captain. I forgot to add the long guns in to get a casualty figure. The correct casualties should be 14.07, as opposed to the real casualties caused by Essex of 5. When I have time, I'll do a separate thread, and I promise not to have any senior moment. That said, I recall reading that the effective range for muskets in the American Revolutionary War was 75 yds. Having looked down range, at Fort Polk, LA, I know how very far 300 yds. is, even though we used meters in 1965. Also, re-reading one of Patrick O'Brian's early books, I was amused to see him state that a vessel would need to fire carronades from Pistol Shot distance to have any hope of hitting. When I show my other examples, it will be clear that it wasn't nearly that bad. My point was that the USS Essex was a crack ship, and she caused just 5% casualties with a massive broadside at Musket Shot range. My rules would see her causing 14.33 casualties from Hailing Distance, which is generally considered to be the Age of Sail distance between Pistol Shot and Musket Shot. My rules are based on what I've gleaned from actual battles. The worst thing one can do is use data from tests done in peacetime. I did that in my early days, and it didn't make for realistic rules. But, I've always enjoyed reading your posts, and I've always thought of you as someone who is very serious about getting it right, while still having fun with our wonderful period of history. |
Blutarski | 22 Mar 2018 7:38 p.m. PST |
Thanks for the kind compliment, BM. I do my best to share what I think I know. You seem to know your stuff quite well; I'd be interested to see some posts from you on whatever AoS topic appeals. B |
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