"British Flank coys 1776" Topic
19 Posts
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42flanker | 10 Mar 2018 9:27 a.m. PST |
A quick question. Do we have an accurate figure for the strength of Howe's flank companies – in particular the Light Infantry- on the eve of the fighting at New York in August 1776 Many thanks JF |
Supercilius Maximus | 10 Mar 2018 6:31 p.m. PST |
1st Grenadiers – 438 officers and men (4th, 5th, 10th, 17th, 22nd, 23rd, 27th, 35th, 38th & 40th) 2nd Grenadiers – 392 officers and men (43rd, 44th, 45th, 49th, 1/Marines, 2/Marines, 52nd, 55th, 63rd & 64th) 3rd Grenadiers – 319 officers and men (15th, 28th, 33rd, 37th, 46th, 54th & 57th) 4th Grenadiers – 284 officers and men (42nd, 1/71st, 2/71st) 1st Light Infantry – 415 officers and men (4th, 5th, 10th, 17th, 22nd, 23rd, 27th, 35th, 38th, 42nd?) 2nd Light Infantry – 416 officers and men (40th, 43rd, 44th, 45th, 49th, 52nd, 55th, 63rd & 64th) 3rd Light Infantry – 284 officers and men (15th, 28th, 33rd, 37th, 46th, 54th & 57th) There was no 4th Light Infantry, as the 71st's light companies had been captured en route to America (and hence the ? next to the 42nd in the 1st Bn). The Light Infantry was commanded by Leslie; the Grenadiers are often given no commander, but I believe Vaughan led them during the Long Island battle. I'm afraid I can't find the note of which returns these figures are from, but it does cover Howe's army for August 1776; perhaps someone else can help? |
42flanker | 11 Mar 2018 5:00 p.m. PST |
Thanks SM, just the ticket. A very useful start. From my notes I can tell you that the 71st only lost the Light coy of the 1st Bn to privateers. It was the grenadiers of the 2nd Bn who were captured at sea. Evidently, they quickly selected men to make up for the missing grenadier company. (My forbear was appointed Quartermaster of the 2nd Bn 71st a week later. His predecessor had also been captured at sea.) "Dyker's ferry, 6th Augt 1776
The 4th Battn of Grenadrs to be formed of the Grenadier Company of the 42d Regt and two Grenadr Companies of the 71st Regt under the Command of Maj. [Hon. Charles] Stuart of the 43rd Regt. .." However, as was announced in Orders for 8th October 1776: "The Two Grenadier Companies [of the 71st) of the 4th Battalion Grenadiers being very sickly, are to join their Regiment; The 42d Gren Compy of said Battn will join the 3d Battalion Grenadiers under the commd of Major Marsh and Major Stewart." At some point, the Light coy of the 2nd Bn 71st joined the 2nd LI, but I am not sure when. A grenadier company was also re-formed subsequently and, unusually, remained in the north when the 71st went southward to Georgia in 1778. Incidentally, a breakdown of the men of the 71st captured at sea shows the flank coys to be composed each of 96 'private men' with 4/5 offrs & volunteers, 4 sgts, 4 cpls 2 drummers Meanwhile the light company of the 42nd were assigned initially to the 1st LI but were subsequently assigned to the 3rd LI, formed from the regiments returning with Clinton from Charleston. When the 3rd LI was disbanded in March 1777, they were assigned to the 1st LI. THe 3rd Grenadier Bn were disbanded at the same time and the Grenadiers of the 42nd were assigned to the 2nd Grenadier Bn. On the return from Philadephia in 1778 they were moved to the 1st Grenadier Battalion. |
Supercilius Maximus | 12 Mar 2018 2:18 a.m. PST |
I thought the 42md's flank companies had moved around a bit, but the above is what I have for the start of the campaign (ie pre-Long Island). |
42flanker | 12 Mar 2018 5:10 a.m. PST |
Yep, as your chart suggests, at Staten Island on the 8th August the Light coy of the 42nd RHR were ordered to join the 1st LI in Leslie's brigade so your list of totals must date from around that time. Re. the 96-strong flank companies recorded for the 71st on their dispatch to America: were they double strength? the Totals for the flank battalions indicate component companies half that size. |
Supercilius Maximus | 12 Mar 2018 9:21 a.m. PST |
I think the rest of the Army was still on "peacetime" musters at that stage, so 47 all ranks per company; the size of the 71st's companies suggests that they were on a par with the 42nd (ie double-strength) – plus there were two battalions! The number of 284 for the 4th Grenadier Battalion is for only three companies – 42nd, 1/71st, 2/71st – so all three must have been "double". The movement of the 42nd's Grenadier company to the 3rd Battalion would have helped to "equalise" that formation with the other two units. Interestingly, the Composite Brigade of Foot Guards had 90+ R&F in their companies, but only 3 officers; apparently, several of them complained that companies that size were too big for just three of them to handle. |
42flanker | 12 Mar 2018 2:08 p.m. PST |
Thanks SM, very helpful points. |
Gnu2000 | 12 Mar 2018 2:56 p.m. PST |
The light companies of the 71st (both battalions) were at similar strength when fighting in the south in 1779 at Savannah/Augusta. |
Supercilius Maximus | 13 Mar 2018 6:28 a.m. PST |
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42flanker | 13 Mar 2018 4:43 p.m. PST |
Gnu 2000- I have some composite notes that say the 'Light Corps' at Savannah in December 1778 was composed of two companies: Capt James Baird 184 Captain Charles Cameron 170 - does that tally with your information? That certainly looks strong. |
Bill N | 13 Mar 2018 9:07 p.m. PST |
I have seen different OOBs for Cambell's forces at 1778 Savannah. The one which indicates Baird's command at 184 and Cameron's at 170 also indicates each command had 114 loyalists attached, drawn from DeLancey's and from the NY Volunteers. That suggests the 71st's light companies numbered 70 and 56 men respectively. |
42flanker | 14 Mar 2018 1:16 a.m. PST |
Thanks Bill. The chart was a working aid put together some time ago and the detail re. the Loyalist component didnt make it into the box. That makes much more sense- (although 114 each does seem strangely neat). |
Supercilius Maximus | 14 Mar 2018 1:28 a.m. PST |
Perhaps it was originally 228 and they split them equally? |
42flanker | 14 Mar 2018 7:34 a.m. PST |
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Gnu2000 | 15 Mar 2018 2:01 p.m. PST |
Hi 42f. Sorry for the delay but work and life tend to interrupt. I'm working from secondary sources so am happy to hear more detail from those who have anything reliable. Some sources are as you say. Novak gives 400 for the 2/71st and just 100 for Baird's command of the 71st Light companies. Others give Baird more men and the two battalions of the 71st fewer. The 71st sailed south with a little over 800 rank and file in total (833 according to Novak) so this doesn't help much. Possibly Baird really did have around 100 Light Infantry of the 71st, possibly these companies were enlarged by transferring hatmen from the 1/71 and 2/71, or possibly Baird was augmented with loyalists as per the post above. The 71st also seem to have created a small unit of 40ish ersatz Dragoons under Capt Tawes, so I think there was some flexibility within the regiment to do what was needed to get the job done. Personally I'm going to paint up extra 71st lights for Brier Creek and assume some rebalancing within the 71st at this time, creating 3 approximately equal (approx 300 strong) battalions rather than two stronger ones plus a smaller provisional light battalion under Baird (400+400+100). I'm making no claim for accuracy! |
Supercilius Maximus | 16 Mar 2018 3:12 a.m. PST |
Flank companies did tend towards full strength at the expense of the centre companies, as long as suitable men were available, and as long as replacements could easily be transferred (and as long as appropriate men were available). There was invariably a constant coming-and-going of personnel as men fell into, or out of, favour, or became sick, committed disciplinary infringements, became/ceased to be officers' servants, and what have you. 100 men for two light companies doesn't sound excessive if you have 400 men among eight centre companies. |
Bill N | 16 Mar 2018 9:44 a.m. PST |
I am working off notes that I took from secondary sources too, but here is what I have. One places the strength of the 2 battalions of the 71st at Savannah in 1778 at 844 men, and this same source gives the strength of Baird's and Cameron's light commands, including the attached Loyalists, at 184 and 170. Another does not provide a breakdown between line and light and has the total 71st at 1,159. There are other discrepancies between these two sources. At Brier Creek my sources have Baird's Light command at 300 men and the 2nd battalion of the 71st at 400. My LONG term plan is to have enough 71st to represent 2 battalions of 400 men each and 2 light companies of 60 men each. The light figures will be combined with other figures as needed for different actions |
42flanker | 16 Mar 2018 2:26 p.m. PST |
It is a bit of a maze. However, since after a short time 'southward' there may have been little to distinguish one company from another – you probably have a good deal of wiggle room! |
Gnu2000 | 17 Mar 2018 4:58 p.m. PST |
Bill N. I've found the OOB for Savannah 1778 in "The Southern Strategy " by D. Wilson that has the figures you quote. By Brier Creek the Light Corps was a little weaker, totalling 299, but drawn from the same units. The 114 Loyalists per light company at Savannah is very symmetrical considering they were drawn from three loyalist units, but I've nothing better to go on. This was 114 from DeLancey's and 114 jointly from Skinner's 3rd bttn and the NY loyalists. |
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