Old Glory  | 09 Mar 2018 2:10 p.m. PST |
I will probably be sorry for doing this and repent from ever doing it again, but here go's:
I have had several requests to release the French to go with our very well received Renaissance range.
How about a suggested and "REASONABLE" list of figures and any help with reference would really be much appreciated? Thank You
Russ Dunaway |
| Condottiere | 09 Mar 2018 3:30 p.m. PST |
How about a suggested and "REASONABLE" list of figures and any help with reference would really be much appreciated? There are quite a few people who comment here who post great resources, especially Daniel S. There have been a number of discussions of French Renaissance troops here int he past year or so. (unfortunately, the TMP search feature seems to be non-functional). |
| Sharpe52 | 09 Mar 2018 11:54 p.m. PST |
I don't think you need too many figures.
Gendarmes in various poses and horse armour; Guascon pikemen and crossbowmen and few others.
As far as sources are concerned Funken's old book about Renaissance coud be a good start.
Anyway I agree about the need of producing French armies for this period as they fought for long in Italy.
Marco |
| Midlander65 | 10 Mar 2018 1:00 a.m. PST |
The first thing to decide would be what period of the Italian Wars – there was a lot of change from Fornovo to Cerisoles – or maybe you are able to do multiple ones, an early, mid and late option? My preference would be middle period, covering the War of the League of Cambrai through to Pavia and the immediate aftermath – around 20 years from 1508. That covers most of the famous battles and personalities and also takes in Henry VIII's adventures in Northern France. I also don't think there are so many troop types:
- Gendarmes, of course, but you are already doing those and French / German / Italian ones looked pretty similar as far as I can see through this period (less so earlier). It would be good to have a full-on option with skirts, plumes and horse armour and a more stripped down version – no or very limited horse armour, no plumes but still with skirts to represent less wealthy men at arms.
- Command / personalities including a Francis I, Charles duke of Bourbon, etc ,and a couple of heralds.
- Aventuriers with crossbow.
- Francs Archers: Longbowmen, Crossbowmen and Arquebusiers, many wearing the distinctive base coats with the skirt and sleeves.
- For the later period and outside Italy, some Valois legion pikemen
- Ordnance archers – there was a recent thread on this and there doesn't seem to be a consensus but I'd say you could cover all the options with a 3/4 armoured lancer with skirt and open-faced burgonets or salets; 1/2 armoured crossbowman and arquebus with burgonets or hats.
- As a general thing, some more civilian types and a few animals to populate camps and add a bit of colour as village bystanders – maybe more universal and not just French. For references, there are lots of contemporary paintings, engravings and tapestries – just google any of the main battles (and the sieges of Therouanne and Dijon, both 1513) – but some obvious sources off the top of my head would be:
Voyages de Genes series, painted in the 1510s.
Battle of Pavia, Osprey,
Pavia Tapestries
Pavia paintings from the Ashmoleum and the National Army Museum – I have some photos of the latter, if you are struggling to get access and Leeds is a bit far to visit!
Battle of Cerisoles by Massimo Predonzani – out of my suggested period but maybe you will do a late series of figures too! Bravo for looking to properly cover this fabulous and neglected (in 15mm) period. The first figures look great and I'm really looking forward to seeing what you do with the French.
smallitalianwars.blogspot.co.uk |
| Wargamorium | 10 Mar 2018 3:41 a.m. PST |
George Gush published a book on Renaissance Warfare which included a chapter on the French Army as far as I recall. This might be available on the internet for download. There were also some articles published by the Early Modern Warfare Society on the French Army of the period. I am hoping to see some French Gendarmes on fully barded horses and some non-Landschnecht infantry. Regards |
| Midlander65 | 10 Mar 2018 5:19 a.m. PST |
Just to add, re. my line above about French native Pikemen, my understanding, quite possibly wrong so please correct me was that: In Italy the French used Swiss or, when they weren't available, Landsknecht pike but in France, including the campaigns against Henry VIII, locally raised pike formations were also used, with the 'Valois Legions' being formed after Pavia, so maybe two different sets of French pike are needed to cover both or, if the range is restricted to the mid-Italian Wars period, within Italy, none. |
| chrisminiaturefigs | 10 Mar 2018 2:16 p.m. PST |
Congrats on a very fine Italian wars range, it is already looking the best in 15mm, and adding some french would really be the icing on the cake.
Certainly french crossbowmen and Gascon Infantry and also a french artillery crew pack really would be great! As Midlander says Bravo for being so thorough in your aims to fully cover all the troop types of this period. |
| Wargamorium | 10 Mar 2018 2:58 p.m. PST |
Could I put in a special plea for gun limbers when you are doing the artillery. They wouldn't have to be very elaborate but just for tabletop purposes. |
| Old Glory | 10 Mar 2018 6:05 p.m. PST |
Wargamorium, no problem if you send just a little reference for the designer so as to save time? Same thing I am trying to do so I can make a dozen or so codes of French and perhaps a pack of civilians? Regards
Russ Dunaway |
| Wargamorium | 11 Mar 2018 5:36 a.m. PST |
Hi Russ I am not sure what canons you intend to produce but here is an interesting limber with oxen
link I found some interesting pictures under Landsknecht Artillery in Google images and Pinterest but I do not know how to post them on this page. I am delighted that your priority is the French Army and I hope you will produce some healthy looking Gendarmes on barded horses. |
| Puster | 11 Mar 2018 9:13 a.m. PST |
As mentioned… early, mid or late war? A decade or two to narrow it in would be good. Marignano and Pavia can probably be fought with nearly identical models, but many of these would look outfashioned (one way or the other) at Cerignola or Ceresole. The army that was assembled to invade England in 1514 is a nice "what if". That said…
Aventuriers and other infantry (Light and medium infantry, mixed distance and handweapons)
Gascons and trained bands (Pike and Crossbow/Shot)
French Archers (Bow and handweapons)
Gensdarmes (heavy to lighter armed "Ordonnance" Archers)
Artillery A lack of light cavalry and shock infantry was a trademark of the French (and others), though Swiss and/or Landsknechts made up for the shock infantry, and Stradiots et al sometimes for the latter. |
| pete17 | 13 Mar 2018 2:10 p.m. PST |
There's some excellent pictures of French troops from the time of Louis XII illustrated in this manuscript: link
and here
link
with the best being here and the first pic shows a lovely unit of french archers : link hopefully these will provide some inspiration, cheers Pete |
| Puster | 14 Mar 2018 5:01 a.m. PST |
Nice book, thanks!
Closeups show some good detail, especially the mix of old and signs of "landsknecht/swiss-type" elaborations with the infantry. I assume these are from the 1500-1510 era? |
| pete17 | 14 Mar 2018 12:06 p.m. PST |
Hoi Puster, yes, I reckon so… the third link seems to have more images with some cracking details. This is my favourite look and period of the 'Italian Wars' with aggro seeking popes, Venice holding it's own and Maximillian working himself. However accept TAG it's a shame no manufacturer quite gets pulls it off with most current figures for the early period looking like an escapee from the Swiss Burgundian Wars with a feather in his hat and most Landsknechts looking like thety are getting ready to refight Ceresole. cheers Pete |
| Puster | 15 Mar 2018 12:08 a.m. PST |
I like the option of that site to zoom in. Just to name typical elements of just one image:
The infantry wears tight pants and short jackets with slashing, barrets or flat topped helmets that seem distinctively French in appearance (I have not seen these on any other army). There is a host of crossbowmen and archers, some of them (command?) wearing breastplate or greaves to the barret. Some carry oval shields and many bear crosses on their arms. Mixed hairstyle, with long and short mixed, and faces with full beard, cleanly shaved or moustached. Two gensdarmes wear pretty unique headgears, looking like a cheap felt cap and a fancy barret. The "chronique denguerrand de mosntrelet" describes events from the first half of the 15th century, so these are not depicting an actual army, but they do look like what I would expect the French army of around 1500-1510 to look like, though I could be off by a decade or two into the 15th. I have, actually, no comparison images for the French army that fought in the Burgundian succession from 1477-93. |
| Swampster | 17 Mar 2018 6:35 a.m. PST |
Concerning limbers for artillery, this link shows that the guns can be towed without a limber, with the chest carried on the trails.
It also shows a larger gun which does have a limber (though the chest is again on the gun trail). A clearer picture of such a limber can be seen in Maximilian's Zeugbuch PDF link on e.g. page 90. |
