Help support TMP


"North Korea's Anthrax Missiles" Topic


23 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the 18th Century Discussion Message Board



1,785 hits since 31 Jan 2002
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP25 Sep 2017 10:34 p.m. PST

What if the Trojans were Greeks?

A first Greek wave-which we will call Proto-Ionian rather than Ionian or Pelasge-came by sea through the Straits of the Dardanelles, it would be natural to attribute to it the foundation of Troy, a simple fishing village at the origin.

And this is what archeology verifies, for the foundation of Troy is closely linked to the Cycladic Civilization, gradually occupied by the Proto-Ionians.

The probable natural disaster of 2200 BC. AD that put an end to the Proto-Ionian civilization properly so-called changed things again.

Starting with Troy IV, the city, originally founded in Louvite territory, became Anatolian again.

The Louvite being an Anatolian language related to the Hittite-Nesite and the Palais.

It was spoken in southern Anatolia in the 2nd millennium BC. AD

She survived the fall of the Hittite Empire and may have given birth to the Milyen and the Lycian.

But it still retained the traces of its Greek origin: its kings bearing double names, Louvites and Greeks: Priam / Podarkčs and Pâris / Alexandros.

It was an Alexandrian / Alexandros who signed a treaty of alliance with the Hittite king Muwatalli II in 1280.

Various facts which have intrigued archaeologists and historians find their explanation in the context of this Trojan story, revised in the light of the Proto-Ionian theory, which shows a Troyan city in the late non-Achaean bronze but Louvito / Proto-Ionian.

Why do we not find in the texts Hittites trace of this Trojan War if this one was a war between Greeks and Anatolians?

Why is the Mycenaean pottery, so abundant in Miletus and its environs, practically absent in Troad, as well as in Lemnos and Lesbos?

Why did Muwatalli II send Hittite troops under Gassu to fight Piyamaradu, an ally of the Achaeans, who then attacked Wilusa?

Why in the Homeric legend are the gods of the Trojans Greek gods?

Why, in this same legend, do most of the Trojan names have a Greek etymology?

The Greeks have often been at war with each other; it is enough to remember the oath which unites the leaders of the expedition against Troy among themselves, so that they do not fight against each other.

How then can we explain the importance in Greek legends of this famous war?

It must be understood that, due to its Louvito-Grecque population and its past, Troy was a tempting prey for the Achaeans / Mycenaeans at the time of the Mycenaean extension in the 14th / 13th centuries.

With the blessing of the Hittites, interested then by the destruction of the kingdom of Arzawa known by the exchange of friendly correspondence between Hittites and Achaeans under Suppiluliuma around 1340 BC. AD, the Achaeans settled in Miletus after Mursilis II destroyed this city around 1316 BC. AD

But the honeymoon between the Hittites and the Achaeans ended when the latter claimed to extend their influence to Troy.

Hence the treaty of alliance between Muwatalli II and the Troyan king Alexandros around 1290 BC. J.-C …

In spite of this alliance, the Achaeans finally had to conquer the city, but this conquest was very ephemeral because of the terrible tsunami of 1200 BC. AD

The memory of this semi-fratricidal war remained, however, in Greek memory …

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP25 Sep 2017 11:08 p.m. PST

Genetically or culturally?

Dan

Rich Bliss26 Sep 2017 1:10 a.m. PST

I always thought the Trojans were Greek.

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP26 Sep 2017 5:00 a.m. PST

I am kind of with Rich on this – I always have assumed that they were part of the great Greek diaspora through the Mediterranean basin

M C MonkeyDew26 Sep 2017 5:19 a.m. PST

+2

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP26 Sep 2017 5:51 a.m. PST

This is a dozen points, and I will not write a book. But I might suggest that Trojan heroes in Greek legend bear Greek names for much the same reason the Japanese had a pilot named Washing Machine Charlie and the Germans had the Red Baron instead of Der Rotte Freiherr.

RudyNelson26 Sep 2017 5:53 a.m. PST

The debate has long been are the Trojans closer to the Hittite culture rather than the Greek. Though Greek city states and enclaves dotted the western coast of Anatolia for centuries.
As Rich said, us older guys grew up with the Greek-Trojan culture concept.
Since I am a historical researcher, I have changed my opinion to one of Trojan-Hittite culture. That said, the Greeks spent ten years isolating the Trojans from other city sates in the area and blocking support from the east. The ten years was not spent sitting outside the city walls as portrayed in the movies.
One opinion trend is that at the very least the Trojans were vassals of powers further east whether Hittite or other wise.

Personal logo Andrew Walters Supporting Member of TMP26 Sep 2017 8:39 a.m. PST

Well, there is room to argue what constitutes being Greek, and there's room to argue about who lived at Troy at different times, and which of those periods was "the^ Trojan war.

But yeah, what we think of as the Turkish coast was generally inhabited by people we would call Greeks. The Greeks were good at living on sea coasts, the Hittites were mostly inland. They lived in places that suited their lifestyle, not in places that "look right" on a map they didn't have.

In Homer, iirc, the Greeks could speak to the Trojans, but not to the Trojan allies from the surrounding territory. Also, the Trojans are clearly connected to the Greek gods. So we know what Homer thought, and what his audience would accept, but that was hundreds of years afterwards.

Of course, Troy is also a crossroads, so a multi-ethnic society is another possibility. Also, it's possible that, some of the time, you had an aristocracy of one group ruling over a population from a different culture, as has happened during a tremendous portion of human history.

There's enough evidence that you can make a strong case for several different version of this history, but no so much that you can narrow it down. Some people find this frustrating and want to nail things down even if that requires some intellectual compromise, but I think this just leaves lots of room for interesting discussion.

And when the time for discussion is over and you have to decide what type of fortifications to put on the table and which troops, I'll be fine with whichever and get out my good dice.

jefritrout Supporting Member of TMP26 Sep 2017 8:58 a.m. PST

As Rudy said, much of the current thinking on the Trojan culture put them closer to the Hittite sphere than the Greek one.

attilathepun4726 Sep 2017 9:35 a.m. PST

The problem is that genetic ancestry, language, religion, and material "culture" (as defined by archaeologists) seldom line up neatly. You only have to look at our modern world to see that.

goragrad26 Sep 2017 9:59 a.m. PST

Another interesting discussion.

attilathepun4726 Sep 2017 10:30 a.m. PST

Looks like we have just experienced another mash-up of threads--I am now seeing this under a heading of "Middle Guard Flags, 1809."

Personal logo piper909 Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member26 Sep 2017 12:58 p.m. PST

I also always figured they were Greeks, too, part of the diaspora across the Aegean. Or at least thoroughly hellenized natives (Bithynia?)

Personal logo Bashytubits Supporting Member of TMP26 Sep 2017 2:20 p.m. PST

I have an even more earth shattering hypothesis to offer, what if the Greeks were actually TROJANS!!!!!????

picture

Personal logo sillypoint Supporting Member of TMP26 Sep 2017 4:13 p.m. PST

We are ALL Geeks. 😜😁

attilathepun4726 Sep 2017 8:57 p.m. PST

How true, Sillypoint, how true.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2017 10:06 p.m. PST

In my opinion the Trojans are perhaps old Greek but of Greek ethnic groups like those who arrived in Greece before the Mycenaean as some of their allies …

Were the Hittites already so weak that they could not intervene en masse to help troy?

PS:For the title of this topic, you may think that I never put the title "Middle Guard Flags, 1809." to this topic, I do not know what happened, I warned Bill Armintrout, we'll see …

Osage201714 Dec 2017 1:59 p.m. PST

Soon I will have the option of moving my armies from an average size room, to much, much bigger one: 5 m x 10 m (16 x 40 feet) !

But no tables, just the floor.

What are the pros and cons of having battle on the floor, instead of on the table ?

Tango0115 Dec 2017 3:04 p.m. PST

Maldición con el BUG!….

4th Cuirassier18 Dec 2017 1:54 a.m. PST

edited cuz of the bug

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 Dec 2017 11:29 a.m. PST

"North Korea has started experiments such as heat and pressure equipment to prevent anthrax from dying even at a high temperature of over 7,000 degrees generated at the time of ICBM's re-entry into the atmosphere," the report stated. "In part, there is unconfirmed information that it has already succeeded in such experiments."

link

North Korea's justification is that the US used bacteriological weapons against them in the Korea War. For a discussion of this topic, see Wikipedia: link

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP20 Dec 2017 11:31 a.m. PST

We are talking GNW here.
Some regiment of both horse and infantry had blue uniforms
Nut what shade of Blue? I don't think light blue, so I'm guessing either dark blue or a mid Blue.

GamesPoet Supporting Member of TMP20 Dec 2017 8:20 p.m. PST

It's all Greek to me. ; )

Seriously … the I'm posting in has a title regarding blue Russians (no, no, not white Russians, blue ones! Oops I digressed again … lol), but inside there is a title regarding North Koreans, and a wonderful discussion regarding Greeks and Trojans and Hitittes. Oh well.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.