Ferreo Cuore | 20 Feb 2018 4:32 p.m. PST |
I hear from friend that when the Germans were short of MkIV Panzer for Panzer Divisions some of them were issued StuG III instead. Does anyone know which Units this happened to and how this compared to a tank with turret? Much thanks! |
UshCha | 20 Feb 2018 5:33 p.m. PST |
I seem to recall that upto about 1/3 of a unit could be replaced by assult guns without too much of an issue. If you think that in some cases such as bounding approaches if the Assult guns were doing the overwatch their lack of a turret would be less of an issue. Up close and personal with high crossing rates no turret may be a disadvantage. Particularly where an all round view is required. However I did read a German account where the rear of a coloumn was covered by a STUG reversing to keep rear cover. |
Mark 1 | 20 Feb 2018 5:35 p.m. PST |
Does anyone know which Units this happened to…? I don't have a list of Pzr Regiments that used StuGs. …and how this compared to a tank with turret? Not exactly the question you asked, but … I recall one interesting observation from a discussion on a different forum where some very good statistical information was presented. It may be surprising at first to many, but the Panzer units that operated StuGs had notably lower performance, on most metrics, than the Sturm Artillerie units that operated StuGs. The key metrics that I've seen are kill-to-loss ratio, casualty rates, and success-of-mission rates. If one looks a bit deeper there are some very reasonable suggestions of why this occurred. First and foremost is mission profile. Panzers "led the way", whereas Sturm Artillerie usually operated in support (primarily in support of infantry formations). Both spent most of the late war serving as "fire brigades", but how they were used differed. The StuG could be very effective as a sniper, but having no turret was a real disadvantage when advancing into the enemy's depth, and by late 1943 (when they started appearing in Panzer Divisions in some numbers) they were by no means a leading platform in terms of armor, mobility and firepower. In particular the side armor was quite thin -- so much so that it was vulnerable to ATR fire if schurzen plates were not in place. This was exacerbated by not having any guns that could bear to the flanks of the vehicle (other than crew side-arms). Second, and perhaps equally important, is that the Sturm Artillerie personnel were specialists at one thing -- gunnery. Their methods and equipment for engaging at range seem to have been superior to the methods taught to the Panzer crews. But perhaps more important was just the specialization. They were gunners first, and everything else a distant second. In this we see similar results in the US Tank Destroyer branch. Their kill-to-loss ratios far exceeded US Armored units, whether in Armored Divisions or in GHQ support battalions. This seems to have been because their training was far more focused on gunnery than tank crew training, as much as for any other reason. Just some observations… -Mark (aka: Mk 1) |
Ferreo Cuore | 20 Feb 2018 7:33 p.m. PST |
interesting thoughts, thanks. believe I saw a while ago a list of such units with StuG substitutions, but can't place it, now. If I recall, whole kompanies were StuG, due to shortage of PzIV. |
79thPA | 20 Feb 2018 8:04 p.m. PST |
StuGs were fairly common in SS units. The 7th, 8th, 10th, 11th and 16th SS used StuG IIIs. Source: German Panzers of WWII by Rosado and Bishop |
Martin Rapier | 21 Feb 2018 12:12 a.m. PST |
Jentz lists all the panzer regiments which were issued Stugs in their panzer companies. Not the same thing as panzer divisions with assault gun battalions. Many panzer grenadier divisions had their entire panzer battalion made up of Stugs. Two actual panzer divs which spring to mind are 10th SS where half the companies were issued Stug and lucky old Panzer Lehr was issued Jagdpanthers instead of Panthers as replacements after the Bulge. Assault guns generally are less useful for offensive operations as they don't have turrets, but they've still got tracks, armour and guns. See e.g. Guderian who had a few things to say on the matter. |
catavar | 21 Feb 2018 11:10 a.m. PST |
My understanding is that Stug's were not considered as good as tanks. The stug had to move to aim their gun. This would probably take more time, been less accurate and had a better chance of getting spotted. I think you'd have to look at each Panzer Div's history as Stug's were issued primarily as needed. Seems to me late war Panzer Div's were issued all kinds of AFV's just because they were available. |
Ferreo Cuore | 21 Feb 2018 11:33 a.m. PST |
Thanks Martin – what book do you refer to had the StuG issued to Panzer Ko? Yes, I'm not thinking about StuG assigned as part of normal practice, as Tank Hunters or Assault Guns, but in place of a Turret Tank in the panzer kompanie. |
deephorse | 21 Feb 2018 12:27 p.m. PST |
That's probably "Panzer Truppen" vols. 1&2 by Thomas Jentz. Two books you really should own if you are a WWII gamer with an interest in the German Panzer Divisions. |
jdginaz | 21 Feb 2018 1:45 p.m. PST |
Most if not all the panzer division had either Stugs or panzerjager IVs issued as replacements at one time or another. |
Thomas Thomas | 21 Feb 2018 2:08 p.m. PST |
All Panzer divisions would have had Stug IIIs in their AT battalions. All Army PG divisions used Stugs not Panzers (going by paper organization). During Bulge build up several Panzer Divisions got JPzIV/7.5XLs instead of Pz IVs in their PzIV companies. Unofficial field substitutions were probably even more common. With complete chaos being the rule in the Spring of '45. Stug III was better protected as the PzIVs turret was a weak point. Lack of turret and fewer MGs though were a drawback. TomT |
79thPA | 21 Feb 2018 4:47 p.m. PST |
@Ferreo: The book I mentioned also lists units having StuGs as part of a tank company as opposed to being part of an assault gun battalion. Are you looking for books to buy? You seem to be fixated on a source. |
donlowry | 21 Feb 2018 7:17 p.m. PST |
They were, I believe, more common in PG divisions' panzer battalions. |
Desert Fox | 21 Feb 2018 7:47 p.m. PST |
The Battle of the Bulge Then and Now has the make up and strength of each of the Panzer and panzer grenadier divisions that partipated in the Battle of the Bulge. I was surprise by how understrengh the Pz and pzg divisions were and how many assault guns the Germans used in place of tanks. |
Ferreo Cuore | 21 Feb 2018 8:19 p.m. PST |
@desert fox interesting. I wonder what American tankers thought of the StuG as opposed to the Tiger and Panther that catch all the press and attention. And there were some very dangerous, powerful StuG being used. Most of the attention seems to be on the Tiger II's that were used. |
Martin Rapier | 22 Feb 2018 12:12 a.m. PST |
As noted above, if you want lists for every panzer division in the area, then Panzertruppen volumes 1 and 2 by Thomas Jentz is what you need. It has some curious omissions, but is the best single source. There are of course endless campaign histories which list specific units for specific battles. |
Marc33594 | 22 Feb 2018 7:11 a.m. PST |
Another enthusiastic thumbs up for Jentz's Panzertruppen volumes 1 and 2. Money well spent. In there you will find such things as the make up of SS Pz Rgt 9 of the 9th SS Panzer division and SS Pz Rgt 10 of the 10th SS Panzer division in April of 44 as having 49 Pz IV(lg) and 44 StuG. It will also show you that in Italy in August of 1943 the 16th Panzer Divsion, 24th Panzer Divsion, and Panzer Divsion HG having substantial amounts of StuG assigned to their Panzer Regiments. Also 3rd and 29th Panzer Grenadier Division having StuGs, not regular tanks, making up their Panzer Abtellung. Really a wealth of information! |
Starfury Rider | 22 Feb 2018 9:46 a.m. PST |
There were a number of Pz Divs which were to go onto a much increased establishment, scheduled for 1943. The intention was that these Divs would have Pz Regts with three Bns, one each of Panther, Pz IV and Stug. It never actually happened, but the Divs involved ended up with one Bn of Panthers and one Bn with two Coys each of Pz IVs and Stugs. 2nd Pz Regt (16th Pz Div); looks to have gotten close to the three Bn structure, with I Bn in Panthers, II Bn in Pz IVs and III Bn with Stugs. It's noted that II Bn switched to three Stugs Coys and one PzIV/70 Coy in Jan45, and that III Bn went to a Pz Assault Gun Bn in Nov43 (with three Coys). 24th Pz Regt (24th Pz Div); the mixed Bn was numbered as III Bn until Jan45, when it changed to II Bn. 36th Pz Regt (14th Pz Div); the mixed Bn was numbered as III Bn until Sep44, when it changed to II Bn. Noted that the Panther Bn switched one Coy to Stugs in Jan45. At the same time II Bn went to three Pz IV Coys (and presumably one Stug Coy). 9th and 10 SS Pz Regts were on the one Panther and one Mixed Pz IV/Stug format from early 1944 onwards, and 5th SS Pz Regt looks to have adopted it from Jun44. I'd also recommend Fire Brigades by Kamen Nevenkin. Very detailed orders of battle, vaguer detail on KStN, blooming expensive and the size of a house brick. Gary |
deephorse | 22 Feb 2018 3:14 p.m. PST |
Only £249.00 GBP here in the U.K. |
Starfury Rider | 23 Feb 2018 6:08 a.m. PST |
Yikes, I didn't know they were going for that much these days, better start keeping it in a safe. I think I paid £60.00 GBP for mine and thought that was extortionate at the time. Gary |
deephorse | 23 Feb 2018 7:41 a.m. PST |
That was the price on Amazon. There might be a cheaper one somewhere! Edit Actually they only seem to be even more expensive elsewhere. $1,200 USD anyone? |
Fred Cartwright | 23 Feb 2018 2:57 p.m. PST |
There were 2 seperate types of replacement for Panzers in Panzer regiments. As has been mentioned Stug's were substituted for Panzers in Panzer Abteilung particularly in Panzergrenadier divisions, but also in Panzer divisions. The second type was the replacement of a Panzer Abteilung with a Stug Brigade or Panzerjaeger Abteilung. This is how some of the Panzer divisions were rebuilt prior to the Battle of the Bulge. 12th SS getting 560th Schwere Panzerjaeger Abteilung and Panzer Lehr getting the 559th for example. |
donlowry | 24 Feb 2018 9:59 a.m. PST |
Fred: Did those schwere panzerjager abteilungen retain their identities and organizations, or were the redesignated/reorganized as panzer battalions? |
Fred Cartwright | 24 Feb 2018 11:14 a.m. PST |
Don just shipped in to replace the second battalion, retaining the identity and organisation. The remaining Panzers were consolidated into the first battalion giving a mixed battalion of Panthers and PzIV's. |