"Whither Dedicated Colonial Australia Rules and Figures? " Topic

Reading promos for the new 'Gangs of Rome' game based on an obscure and barely martial historical episode, and looking at the amount of specialist product being produced to allow gamers to tabletop it (now including even MDF Roman urban buildings under construction), had me musing once again about the strange and inexplicable publishing and production choices made by this hobby's creatives and manufacturers. Just recently a rule set and model cars for a 1930s variant of Mad Max were pulled out of someone's imagination, and of course there are the endless 'weird' history iterations and transparent imitations of a certain Gothic SF game-setting and style. I wonder how much market research goes into these products; is there really sufficient demand to make them commercially viable?

I remain amazed that somehow, in the midst of all this frenetic creative effort devoted to subjects whose gaming potential I'm sure would not have occurred to most hobbyists, the martial history of an entire continent, which offers the possibility of colourful, multi-faction skirmish games with, if desired, its own unique fantastical dimension, has been overlooked and deemed unworthy of commercial attention. Would it really be any less commercially viable than the eccentric, whimsical game settings mentioned above?

Henry, From what I know, I would think any set of rules for Colonial era warfare would work, The Sword and The Flame in particular. I see many aspects if warfare in Australia as being very similar to the American West, especially the Bush Ranger era.

So… is it colonial, or an alternative Wild West? This apparent confusion highlights exactly why the subject needs its own special treatment. Could it be that you don't know enough about it, Nick?

If you've read my past posts you'll know that of existing rule sets I've identified a set designed for the Old West as the best mechanical fit (when modified appropriately). But I'm bemoaning the absence of purpose-designed games: complete packages that focus purely on colonial Australia with the intent of immersing players in the place and time, and figures that don't need to be converted.

TSatF is pitched at entirely the wrong level, and its combat system provides a mechanically poor representation of the dynamics of frontier conflict. In regards specifically to combat there are unique tactical factors that need to be represented. I'm not going to repeat the numerous points I've made in recent posts on Happy Wanderer's thread on this very board (have you read it?) and countless others over the years; you can find those easily enough yourself.

Beyond basic combat mechanisms there's the whole question of the special character of both the historical setting and Aboriginal mythology. If every other historical subject is deserving of dedicated rules systems (how many exclusively Old West games are there?) that can just be opened, read, and played without any additional work from their purchasers why not colonial Australia? The same goes for figures. Why was Saga published? Weren't there already countless skirmish rule sets perfectly mechanically adequate for the Dark Ages? Why bother going to the effort of creating a game about Roman gangs when any skirmish rule set that allows for close and unarmed combat would have sufficed?

Old wargaming tradition.
If you don't like existing rules, write your own.

I can only assume that none of the manufacturers think that it is commercially viable. If you think it is, then commission a range of figures and, as Winston suggests, write some rules. Otherwise, try and get someone to run a Kickstarter. If existing manufacturers don't consider it commercially viable, one person's repeated complaints are hardly likely to sway them. If, on the other hand, a hundred people posted on here about how they would rush to buy your proposed package, then that might make a difference, but I ain't seeing that. However, good luck to you.

Okay then I will echo Winston's advice. I assume you do know quite a bit about the subject. Put togehter your own rules that reflect the fighting as you think they should. What level do you want to represent?
There are some figures out there, Eureka does Aborigines, Great Escape Games has three or four gangs for their Dead Man's Hand Game modeled after the movie The Proposition.

When contemplating new game systems or figure ranges do rules publishers and figure manufacturers really rely on nothing more solid and reliable for sales projections than hunches and guesswork?

Where did War Banner get the market research data that convinced it that a game about Roman street gangs was going to walk off the shelves?

You have entirely missed the point of my post, Mr Smith.

One should never assume, because… you know the rest.

To rephrase the question that drove my post: why is it that a perfectly valid historical subject can be constantly overlooked year after year while all sorts of bizarre, obscure, and often distinctly unmartial concepts become commercial 'war' games and figure ranges? How well do these products actually sell? If well, is it merely the existence of a complete, shiny commercial package, no matter how 'fringe' the subject matter, that draws in the punters?

Much as I dislike having to repeat myself, Nick:

I have 'put together my own rules': 'Boomerang', for 15mm figures and purely concerned with frontier conflict; only likely to appeal to a very small number of people, so I've been in no hurry to offer it publicly. I'm talking here about a game that addresses the entire picture though, and which is primarily intended for use with 28mm figures. I've done mods for 'A Good Day to Die' and LotOW, obviously neither of which qualifies as purpose-designed. Even were I to write such a set from scratch, home-brew rules are clearly not the same as high-production-value, glossy commercial products.

Once again, the DMHDU figures are, as you yourself point out, based on movie characters and bear no relation to the historical reality.

Eureka makes Denisovans, not Aborigines. They require conversion work like any other adapted figures.

I just saw "A Right Bloody Mess" published, its a source book for the Australian Civil War in the 1930's, similar to the Very British Civil War. Don't know if there's any actual rules or figure suggestions in it.

And somebody had Ned Kelly figs a while back.

As far as why the industry hasn't done more: I don't know.

Henry,
Here is a fairly informative thread from the Lead Adventure Forum by a guy who is gaming the frontier wars in Australia. If you are not a member, you should join. Loads of knowledgeable folks there.

link

I second Happy Wanderer's blog for excellent source material in the period you're after.

You are also assuming that every range developed is motivated by a desire to make a profit. There are some ranges out there that were done because a private party with an obscure penchant had the money to make it happen. Speaking of colonial conflicts, I am pretty sure that Empress Miniatures' New Zealand Wars range started out as someone's private commission and the figures were so good Empress decided to pick it up. Unfortunately if you don't have the cash to do it it's unlikley you can wheedle any manufacturer actually concerned with making a profit into diving into obscure periods.

I'd be curious about the origin of Gangs of Rome. It may be the case of a gamer wth money to invest bringing their pet project to life and also having the business savvy to try and make their money back? They've done an excellent job of trying to market the period until folks get excited about it and frankly are a clinic in such an exercise and demonstrating why shiny marketing is actually important in wargaming. YMMV

That's Happy Wanderer, Nick, whose thread on this board I referred to above. That thread duplicates the one he started on LAF. Much of the content is clearly drawn from or inspired by the material I've posted on TMP and elsewhere over the years, although if you read the thread you'll see that I do take issue with some of his conclusions and aspects of his tabletop representation of frontier conflict.

Just how enduring is Gangs of Rome likely to be once the appeal of the shiny and new wears off though, Axabrax? If it's a long term prospect why shouldn't the same marketing process work for colonial Australia?

I can name at least two excellent miniatures companies in Australia. Castaway Arts and Eureka.
If either one, particularly Eureka, thought such a range was economically viable, the range would be out there.
Eureka originated the "put your money where your mouth is" 100 Club and 300 Club. This was Nic's answer to the ONE person who would proclaim "Boy, if only someone would produce left handed Bavarian horse grenadiers for the War of Jenkins Ear…"
Eureka has done a few Australian inspired projects. So, ask them.

As for Gangs of Rome, gladiators have always been popular.
Also the HBO/BBC series Rome was popular some years ago. It made an impression on TMP and the wargaming audience. Sometimes it takes a while to get our inspirations caught up with what's out there. But I've seen a few games on the topic at HMGS cons using conversions.

Your preferred genre needs something to popularize it.
In the meantime, do what Gangs of Rome gamers did. Convert figures and write your own rules.
Fans of the Finnish army in WW2, or Chaco Wars had to make do with conversions for years.

I have dabbled with this myself in the past. One of the several considerable limitations for launching any serious foray into this period and skirmish level genre (where I'd pitch it) is the lack of supporting published works on period uniforms and equipment which are sufficiently accessible for people to ease into it. I looked to the golden age of bush-rangers and found myself embarking on my own research into encounters between Police Magistrate Bayliss (NSW) and Mad Dog Morgan. I even went to the Riverina Museum (Wagga) and sighted the slug he was shot with (Bayliss that is).
In experimenting with game mechanisms and being experienced myself with pistols (professional occupation – not personal enthusiasm) I derived a simple movement over accuracy equation which I though would be fun. The more a figure moves in a turn the less chance of hitting your target. It's a chance/choice and anyone whose involved themselves in a moving close range fire-fight with revolvers will understand the reasoning.
Happy to discuss.

Gladiators aren't gangs; they constitute a completely different genre, and one that holds a place in the popular mind thanks to countless TV and film representations. That subject has generated many rules systems – including high-end package; witness Jugula.

Did the TV series you cite feature gang wars, Winston?

'Your preferred genre needs something to popularize it.'

I refer you once again to my core question: is the existence of a glossy packaged game system and complementary miniatures sufficient in itself to popularise a gaming subject? It seems to me that many rules publishers and figure manufacturers believe that it is.

Obviously the publication of a colonial Australia Osprey or its equivalent would raise the hobby profile of the subject UG, but there's no reason why such material couldn't be included in a gaming package; either in the main rule book or in supplementary volumes a la FoW.

I think there's potentially a huge market for a game about vampire gladiators in the civil war era US, with Abraham Lincoln doing his best to personally eradicate them: 'Jugula's America'.

I don't really understand the point you are trying to make HM?

A lot of ranges are produced because people have an interest in them and a desire to play in that genre. My own Martian Empires range exists because I wanted 15mm vsf figures and rules.

I suspect that Australian Colonial is not euro/USA centric enough to interest most of the hobby companies…

Mike

HM,you asked some fairly valid questions in your opening post. After that you just seem to have got angry with every reply people have sent in. What exactly is it that you're after? No manufacturer has made figures or rules for an extremely niche market, shocks = nil.

I'm just trying to generate discussion and maybe fire the imagination of rules publishers and figure manufacturers looking for something fresh and as yet unexploited, BHM. There have been a number of commercial 'near misses' over the years; I'm merely trying to facilitate accurate 'target acquisition'.

'I suspect that Australian Colonial is not euro/USA centric enough to interest most of the hobby companies'. Mmmm… colonials generally; TMWWBK; Darkest Africa; Congo; Test of Honour… ad nauseum.

You're reading into my posts a tone that isn't there, foxweasel. I do think it's entirely acceptable to dispassionately counter claims that are or appear to be unfounded or spurious. It happens all the time on these boards as a matter of course, and is a normal part of debate and discussion.

'No manufacturer has made figures or rules for an extremely niche market,…'? 'Gangs of Rome'; 'Dracula's America'; Three Musketeers; 18th century smugglers; Mexican Revolution; Chaco War; War of the Triple Alliance; Carlist Wars; Cape Frontier Wars; armed teddy bears… and so on.

The HBO series Rome was all about gang wars in Rome.

I looked it up online Winston, and according to Wikipedia and other sites HBO's 'Rome' was actually a general dramatised history of the late Republican and early Imperial periods, with the focus of the first season being the civil war between Julius Caesar and Pompey. Maybe gang wars informed the plot of an episode or two, or were a background theme in one of the seasons, but it doesn't appear at all accurate to claim that the entire series was '… all about gang wars… '. Even if gang wars were a plot element at some point it also seems to me to be drawing a very long bow to see a connection between 'Gangs of Rome' and a TV series that finished eleven years ago.

HM, you might be trying to "generate discussion", but, from my perspective, the most striking thing about this discussion (and the previous similar discussions) is the lack of any obvious enthusiasm on the part of the TMP punters for your proposal. It's not like there are dozens of folk saying that they would rush to buy your proposed complete game in a box. Even if there were, manufacturers are entitled to decide what they want to do with their own money. You obviously don't want to invest your own money, so why do you expect others to do so on your say so?

The colonial wars you mention all have British or European forces involved and it is possible to use the figures in more than one conflict. I think that Australian Colonial is simply too niche and, as mentioned, even though you are very enthusiastic about there simply aren't enough other people similarly interested to create an interest worth developing a range for…

HM, it appears that all you want to do is tear down what you call "niche". You are annoyed that your particular favorite is ignored.

First, let me address the Rome issue. You've never seen it. Fine. I have, several times. Let me assure you that it IS mostly (not "all") about gang wars.

You dismiss as "niche":
3 Musketeers. Seriously? Dozens of movies, some excellent, some not so much. I used to Game swashbuckling saloon brawls all the time and even was briefly in an rpg. I had no problems finding gamers.
Mexican Revolution. Poncho Villa vs Patton. ‘Nuff said.
Carlist Wars? Ask the Perrys. Obviously they can and do crank out whatever interests them. It's their business after all.
And so on.

I can dismiss Napoleonics as "niche" because I wouldn't know Ulm from Ligny. French were involved? Right? The fact that I have no interest doesn't make it niche.

I've already suggested Eureka miniatures. Contact Nic. See if he has any plans. He has quite a few Australian lines going.

May I also suggest TSATF, Fire and Steel, Gloire, any number of Wild West gunfight rules. I'm basing these suggestions on Quigley Down Under. Cowboy figures would seem to work fine.

Note to Dear Editor: This is NOT a "Shut Up".
It seems to me that the tools are out there. You just have to do a little work. You can hardly expect Games Workshop to crowd the hugely popular 40K line aside for your pet project. As Tyrion Lannister would say, "Make do!"

By the way, I see no Gaucho gaming projects out there either. But a few Taras Bulba.

That's nothing more than a subjective personal impression, Andy. Some TMP punters (and those on other online hobby fora) have been very enthusiastic.

To reiterate, the point I'm making is that the contemporary trend appears to be for punters to be drawn to a game that's professionally produced, well marketed, and possessed of good gaming values no matter what its subject matter. That being the case, wouldn't there be inherent commercial appeal in a unique property set against a fresh and novel historical and cultural background. As the recent hullaballoo over the faux Crocodile Dundee remake ads demonstrates, Australia continues to fascinate Americans, and Britons have had a longstanding distant cousin relationship with this country.

As far as I'm aware BHM, Australia was colonised by Britain and was part of the British Empire. It remains a member of the British Commonwealth. Both in their standard infantry role and as members of the Military Mounted Police British soldiers were involved in the early stages of frontier conflict, anti-bushranger operations, the Castle Hill Rebellion, and of course the Eureka Stockade Rebellion. Happy Wanderer has shown that by adopting an attitude to multi-purposing no more flexible than that which allows Zulu War figures to turn up in the Sudan or on the NWF it's possible to use Napoleonic Brits for colonial Australia. Again, you offer only a personal opinion with no evidential support.

Every film treatment I've seen of Australian in the second half of the 19th century, has a decidedly Old West look to it. Ned Kelly, Dan Morgan, Ben Hall, The Proposition, they look pretty interchangable with Cowboy figures. There are though two specific types of figures missing, Aborigines and Police. The latter can be done with Zulu War colonial volunteer figures, unless you want the flat caps. The Eureka Denisovans as you say need some fairly minor conversion, but photos I've seen make them look pretty convincing.

A few questions.
Do you want to Game the period? You have plenty of suggestions.
Or are you just annoyed that Games Workshop isn't spending a quarter million dollars marketing a game you aren't likely to buy anyway?

Fair enough it is a personal opinion but it is an opinion of a manufacturer who has been in the industry since 2004 and has developed comprehensive ranges for fairly niche non mainstream periods such as Sikh Wars… but you obviously know better…

Mike

I remember there was a recent Eureka 100-Club Campaign to expand their Maori War Range – arguably better known, more gameable and potentially less ‘sensitive' than Australia during the same period – but still a niche within a niche. The push was well publicised but it ultimately failed to gather enough support.

Gang fights in Rome, Three Musketeers etc are going to appeal more to the ‘fantasy' gaming fraternity than more obviously historical subjects simply because of familiarity (films, TV series etc). Likewise anything including Vampires, Werewolves etc, even if the settings are different from the original media inspiration.

Australians have never invested much time in our colonial stories compared to the American Western traditions. We can all sight some examples of course but wargaming subjects seem to respond to popular cultural expressions. I admit to being inspired by books, TV and movies – even exhibitions. We just haven't been good at promoting our history and telling our stories. I don't agree it's a niche any more than the Zulu wars is a niche or the Carlist Wars is a niche. HM is on the money where he spells out the research can be contained within rules or a starting pack of some sort.I think it' would make a brilliant genre but we Ausies would have to get it off the ground with a lot of original research – which would be really worthwhile.

All it really needs is someone to publish a few good miniatures, really. Rules need a few notes at best tacked on to existing popular sets.

At this point, I'd look to Eureka and the Perrys. The former have always gone for local and obscure, while the latter have a stated aim of expanding to cover pretty much the whole 19th C colonial sphere. Get a flea in Michael or Alan's ear about the Eureka stockade or the Black War and see if it bites :)

mrinku – I have actually suggested to the Perrys that they include colonial Oz in their ambitious project, but given its pure skirmish character, not in 28mm but rather as an addition to the 40mm range. This would certainly allow for distinctive individualisation of historical bushrangers.

Basha Felika – could that not possibly be because, apart from Eureka's own ranges (they already have a – rather dated – Maori Wars range in addition to the more recent 'Tribal' figures) Empress Miniatures has been producing a very comprehensive, high quality Maori Wars range for some years, and Old Glory has had a budget range for even longer. Niche subjects can't afford too much competition, and if you are going to try and compete you'd better have a product that offers something different to and/or better than the existing ranges.

Sorry Nick, but there were genuine costume differences between colonial Australia and the Old West if you know the subject in detail. You could make the same argument you do about any and all late 19th century colonial civilians, which would mean that no one need bother making distinctive Old West or British colonial figures. You could argue that manufacturers could have saved thousands by just doing one generic range and everyone making do with 'close enough'. There'd be no need for specific figures of cowboys, law men, outlaws, Boers, Darkest Africa white men, Matabele Rebellion mounted police.. shall I go on? Also, you must surely be aware that movies often take a very relaxed attitude to historical fidelity. For instance, as I've already mentioned, the costumes (and uniforms) in 'The Proposition' bear little resemblance to those actually worn in colonial Australia. In fact the scriptwriter and producer, Nick Cave, was inspired mainly by the westerns he'd viewed in his youth, and was consciously aiming for that aesthetic in the visuals of his film.

Roman gangs constitute a purely historical subject that I would think demands at least a passing interest in the historical reality behind the game. It's clearly not fantasy. As mentioned above there have been major release movies set in colonial Australia; at least as many as there have been Three Musketeers films in recent years.

Yes, one can – and as I've already stated, I have – just modify existing rules and convert existing figures; but at the risk of wearing out my typing fingers, that's not the point of my OP.

BHM – you seem to have twisted my humble suggestion into some sort of personal affront to your hobby business experience. I accept that you're not personally interested in investing in this concept. Can you accept that other, perhaps larger enterprises with more capital and therefore more freedom to venture into virgin territory, just might be?

I've achieved the purpose I set out to with my OP, so to put a coda on this discussion I'll boil things down to basics. The simple facts are:

1. There are companies out there that specialise in producing high-production and gaming value immersive tabletop miniatures games (e.g Studio Tomahawk), and often the proprietary figures to accompany them (e.g Warlord Games).

2. Simple commercial common sense suggests that those companies are constantly on the lookout for new and original game concepts and properties.

3. Colonial Australia has the advantages of being fresh, unexploited, and possessed of its own unique character, it can satisfy all levels of gaming interest from the purely historical to 'weird' (with the inclusion of Aboriginal mythological elements), and it's certainly no more obscure or fringe and no less valid a subject for a game than many that are currently going into production.

An amusing celluloid-inspired thought occurred to me after typing the previous post, to whit, that hypothetical generic colonial civilians range could conceivably have been titled 'Honkies with Hats'. Those of you familiar with a particular music industry bio mockumentary of some years ago will understand the reference :- ).

HM, please give us a summary of your relevant business experience. Please also explain why you are not prepared to invest your own money in the project.

What format would you like those documents in, Andy? I need to know before I handball the job on to my accountant.

I would be reasonably content with a generic 1850 – 1899 range of guys in wide brimmed hats.
I had the opportunity to watch "Mad Dog Morgan" the other day. I made it aobut half way through and gave up. The combination of the huge beard glued to Dennis Hopper's face and the fake Irish accent made the movie just about unwatchable for th epost part. I'm not even sure it was filmed in Australia.

HM

As far as I can see, I think your question was:

If a large company released a colour rulebook and supporting line of miniatures for Australian Colonial games would it be something that would catch on?

And the general opinion here seems to be that it is too niche and not something that interests enough people.

I don't really know what else to add…

Mike

HM, happy for you just to list the requested information here.

That's extremely generous of you, Andy :- ).

The movie was most definitely filmed in Australia, Nick.