"Some excellent alternative primers for plastic models" Topic
17 Posts
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Baranovich | 18 Feb 2018 4:10 p.m. PST |
Over the past year I did some mass-building of plastic armies and of course also had to do mass-spray priming. I was beginning to go broke trying to continue to use Games Workshop and Army Painter spray products, so I endeavored to seek out some successful alternatives that would be significantly cheaper in price. I did a significant portion of my plastics in GW's Chaos Black, which is a fantastic primer, but at $15.00 USD a can, yikes. To finish the rest of my armies I searched out a black primer/paint that would work just as well. ***Just one note: During this time I was also trying out and testing Armory black spray primer. I do NOT recommend Armory for priming. It's too iffy and inconsistent. Ironically, I used it successfully on plastic and resin terrain projects for two years, and it was perfect every time. Then I tried to use it on a series of plastic and metal minis. a year later and it was a frosting disaster. Even under the normal temperature ranges it will frost, you just can't trust it. I found Krylon Colormaster paint + primer. Some modelers might be scared about the paint + primer part thinking that "double coverage" would kill the detail of the model. Not at all. Perfect coverage and even the tiniest details are all intact. Here is a Warhammer plastic Empire general on his gryphon, and you can see that even the most minute details are perfectly visible, even the tiny indentations on the gryphon's feet. Krylon Colormaster works every bit as good as GW's Chaos Black or Army Painter's black. Just follow the usual rules of spraying 9-12 inches away and use short back and forth motions with short bursts of spray:
Another thing I wanted to finally begin doing in my modeling was to advance to another level with basecoating larger models. I don't own an airbrush and so my only alternative was to seek out spray primers and colors that I could use as basecoats for large monster models, larger vehicle models, etc. With my Nurgle models, particularly The Great Unclean One, I wanted to finally try a basecoat with a spray as opposed to brushing on a base color which would likely obscure detail if I tried to apply a brushed basecoat over a black primer, which would probably require two coats. And also because The Great Unclean One has so many fine, fine details in his skin, I just couldn't justify doing a brush-on basecoat. I looked for a line of spray that had a lot of different colors available. I tried out and tested Rustoleum's American Accents 2 x Ultra Coverage paint/primer. Again, sounds scary that it provides "2x Ultra coverage", sounds like it would gunk up a model's details pretty horribly. But again, it's still essentially designed as a paint/primer and as you can see here provided fantastic coverage and you can see that even the most subtle details on the model are still clearly visible and crisp:
The really nice thing about both lines of spray paint is that they cover a whole range of color spectrum that is as extensive as any hobby spray range like Army Painter. They come in the standard finishes, flat/satin/gloss. Some of the colors I could only find in a satin finish, but that isn't a huge deal since you can varnish the model at the and with a flat varnish. One key thing I learned during this whole process is that there really isn't any secret or special formula in GW and Army Painter spray primers. They're really nothing more than mass-produced spray paints with their own labels on them. I highly doubt that Army Painter or GW has "specially formulated" for models spray produced at some special factory. Here's a photo I took at Home Depot just to show the extent of the range. And at $4.00 USD a can you won't go broke priming your armies! These are named Rustoleum "Painter's Touch" at Home Depot but at Walmart I found the exact same range of Rustoleum 2x coverage colors but they were named "American Accents". Seems like identical spray ranges but with two different names:
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nudspinespittle | 18 Feb 2018 8:03 p.m. PST |
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Allen57 | 18 Feb 2018 9:29 p.m. PST |
Wish I had read this two days ago when I bought my latest can of primer. I am trying to coat some of the 1/72 plastic figures which tend to be soft plastic. Have not tried my latest spraycan yet. |
Ran The Cid | 19 Feb 2018 6:45 a.m. PST |
Made the switch to colored spray paint more than a year ago. Works like a charm on both metal and plastic. |
Winston Smith | 19 Feb 2018 3:22 p.m. PST |
ALL "hobby" spray paints are overpriced and vary wildly in quality. They do not have a bully like Walmart to impose quality control on them. You have been warned. Ignore at your own peril. |
Baranovich | 20 Feb 2018 5:46 a.m. PST |
Glad this was helpful. Yeah exactly, the thing about hobby sprays is as you said Winston, they vary widely in quality and you discover bad ones among them just like bad spray paint brands in big box stores. Foundry is the one I always mention because whatever formula that stuff is, you have to use it in absolutely perfect outdoor conditions or it will frost. As in 65-70 degrees with the perfect amount of humidity. Another example I often point out is GW. That crazy expensive hobby line of sprays technically has NO actual primers in their range. Chaos Black and Skull White are spray paint colors, there is nothing specially formulated about them that make them "primers". Even their ridiculously overpriced gold spray for Stormcast Eternals ($20.00 a f'n can!), I'll bet that Rustoleum's and Krylon's gold sprays work exactly the same way. I highly suspect that GW gets their spray supply from Rustoleum or Krylon or some other major paint maker, and then they simply put their own GW color names on them. Same goes for Army Painter. They do have their own specific colors mixed of course. Army Painter is cool because they matched all their spray colors to equivalent dropper bottle colors so that you can touch up hard to reach areas of a model where spray might miss and know that the colors will match up perfectly. But nevertheless at the end of the day they're still just spray paints. And not cheap. That's not to say that GW Chaos Black isn't a great primer, it's actually awesome. I have sprayed it outside in the summer with some fair amount of humidity and it worked perfectly. But then I discovered that Krylon Colormaster works perfectly in the exact same summer conditions- -and GW's "hobby primer" is 5 x the price of Krylon's black "spray paint". - and the undercoat finish they provide on a metal or plastic model surface is virtually identical. |
davbenbak | 20 Feb 2018 6:36 a.m. PST |
I have used Krylon and Rustoleom for years with my plastic 1/72 figures with great results in every kind of weather. Lately though I have been using spray on Gesso which works wonders even on Hat soft plastics. As it absorbs acrylic paints, it maximizes the effects of acrylic washes. |
Marc at work | 20 Feb 2018 10:03 a.m. PST |
Hi Davb – what brand of spray on gesso are you using please? |
Black Cavalier | 20 Feb 2018 2:33 p.m. PST |
Baranovich, thanks for the good info. I've used krylons and Rust-Oleum's camo ranges for a while. Both ranges have a very flat finish. Have you tried painting the nurgle figure yet? I'm curious to hear how it paints up with the satin finish on it. I've avoided most of the commercial spray paint ranges because they are at least Satin if not shinier, so I thought they would be difficult to paint over. Thanks |
Baranovich | 20 Feb 2018 9:58 p.m. PST |
@Black Cavalier, Most welcome. The satin finish is the only sort of unknown in this. I looked on some forums before I bought it and modelers have reported painting over satin spray and the paint adhesion was just fine. Other modelers of course say never use it and only use flat primers. All the other Krylon and Rustoleum's I've bought were flat before this one. I got this one in satin only because it was the best sort of medium green I could find for Nurgle that both darker green washes would show up and lighter green highlights would show up on. I'm looking at the model up close and the satin finish does have a very fine sort of surface texture to it, it's not a slick, smooth, reflective surface, so it looks like it will have "tooth" for acrylic paints to stick to. I'm not very worried since others have reported successfully painting over it. I would suppose however that satin is about as shiny as you want to go when using a spray as a primer because I do know that semi-gloss and gloss can be a problem as undercoats. Unless of course you want the entire model glossy and wet-looking and are only going to do like washes over it. On the other hand, I've noticed that even Army Painter primers that say they are flat do have some sheen to them. The Krylon flat black I used also has a sheen, in fact it's not that far off from the green satin I used, both have a degree of sheen. I'll report back on how miniature paints work on it. |
Baranovich | 20 Feb 2018 10:18 p.m. PST |
…so I got into an argument today with another modeler online. He's a purist who will not use anything but GW spray paints on his models. The argument was over exactly what is a "spray paint" and what is a "primer". There is this huge misconception out there that a surface "spray paint" can't technically be used for undercoating because it isn't formulated to be a primer. Now it is true that Krylon and Rustoleum and others DO make products specifically designed as primers vs. ordinary spray paints. What I question is, just how different are the two products really? Is there REALLY a special bonding agent or additive to make primers primers? I argued NO. The reason I argued it is not because there aren't true primers out there. Automotive primer is a specific product that is most certainly designed for undercoating. I argued it because I believe that many products sold as "primers" are in fact nothing more than spray paints that can be used for undercoating. I pointed out something that I think is significant but my purist friend refused to acknowledge. And I don't think I'm crazy here: Look at Games Workshop's own Chaos Black and Corax(Formerly Skull) White. GW brags about these two products being – here we go – "specially formulated" to prime models. And at $17.00 USD a freaking can it had BETTER work as a freaking primer!(not only is it $17.00 USD a can but the can itself is like 5 ounces less than the Krylons. So 3 x the price and less spray paint!) Here's the lowdown on what it says on their very own cans. NOTE what the can says right on there: MODEL PAINT. This is NOT a "primer". Corax White, same thing: MODEL PAINT. NOT a "primer". Also note what their description is of these products: "Chaos Black Spray is designed for basecoating plastic, resin and metal Citadel miniatures. Reformulated for maximum results, with a fantastic black colour, it's a fast way to get a uniform base of colour onto models. This is an ideal spray for basecoating any miniature in black, quickly and with minimal fuss." A great COLOR, great for BASECOATING. Basecoating, NOT undercoating. Those two things are hugely different according to hobby purists. If something is meant to be a basecoat it means that it's going to be one of the primary colors of the finished model itself! (Like using red primer for Rev. War british soldiers and using the actual red primer color as the basecoat for their uniform coats.) If something is meant to be an undercoat, well then you're going to be painting the actual basecoat of the model OVER it. Folks, these are spray paints, not primers! They just happen to be the two most common colors that modelers prime with, that's it!
My friend got noticeably upset when I pointed this out. He also got noticeably upset when I pointed out that Krylon's flat black paint+primer product gives the exact same finish as the Chaos Black. It seems as though marketing works very well in our modern age. Some people feel that unless they're paying $17.00 USD a can for spray paint it must be the wrong product to use. If that were not bad enough, other GW spray colors are $19.50 USD for 10 oz.!!! Krylon's black is $3.85 USD for 15 oz. You do the math! Personally, I want to spend most of my hobby money on actual models and not a wall full of spray cans! |
lesbt65 | 21 Feb 2018 1:00 p.m. PST |
Well said Baranovich. Knowing how legally conscious GW are if it was primer it would say primer on the can. The spray paint I use states it is a 'primer for bare metal to provide a tough durable protective coating. A properly primed surface is essential to obtain the optimum adhesion and performance of the finishing paint'. |
Bunkermeister | 21 Feb 2018 4:18 p.m. PST |
If you spray a small amount of spray paint into a jar you can use it to touch up places where you missed a spot or where you need to go back after you have added other colors. Go to youtube and look for decanting spray paint videos. YouTube link Mike Bunkermeister Creek bunkermeister.blogspot.com |
Baranovich | 21 Feb 2018 9:29 p.m. PST |
Hey guys! This is per Black Cavalier's request for an update on the results of using a satin finish spray. Also thanks to Cavalier for the tip on Krylon's and Rustoleum's camo sprays! I picked up two of those tonight, I'm hoping the green will work on my Nurgle. Incidentally, that flat camo stuff are the ONLY flat spray colors I could find at any store in the area that actually came in browns and greens. Everything else was all satins or glosses for all colors with the exception of the flat white and black primers in those ranges. So I had to post this as soon as possible! I need to revise somewhat the info. I'm giving out here to my fellow modelers. There is a significant PROBLEM with the SATIN spray in the Rustoleum range I highlighted above. On the Nurgle stuff I sprayed, it won't cure. It's tacky on the round plastic bases after seveveral days of drying time. It seems to be drying better on the actual mini. plastic but even after 72 hours it just doesn't feel right. I think the issue here is either the satin finish itself which turns out possibly CAN'T be used as an undercoat or it's the fact that it's satin spray paint and not primer and the satin has nothing to do with it. I'm in the process of stripping my Nurgle stuff with Super Clean which is an amazingly awesome for rescuing plastic minis. Thank god I could reverse the process!! It would seem that indeed you can't use the colors sprays from this Rustoleum range as primers, but only the black and white spray primer from the range. That being said, the Krylon Colormaster paint + primer IS a primer and DOES function as an undercoat, I used it on a bunch of minis. including the Empire general in the pictures above in the previous posts. Plus the black and white primers are both flat. Now to make it more interesting. The Rustoleum range above in the pictures has TWO versions, "Painter's Touch" and "American Accents". The Painter's Touch comes in a paint + primer version, while the American Accent is just spray paint. As I said, I tried the American Accents paint version and it wouldn't cure on GW hard plastic! I would GUESS that the paint + primer painter's touch WOULD work on plastic minis, just as the Krylon paint + primer works on minis. very well. I really apologize for giving out bad info folks!!! ***SO, to summarize – at this point I would say that only the flat black and white paint + primers from the Krylon range are safe to use on minis. For the Rustoleum 2x ultra coverage range, I would say again that only the white and black flat primers will work for sure on minis. ***As far as the satin finish goes, I do NOT know if the satin itself is the source of the problem, or if it's the fact that it's a satin spray paint that has no priming qualities in it. The fact that Rustoleum makes the satins in a paint + primer version only complicates it further. ***Given the fact that GW's sprays are NOT primers but merely flat spray paint(that work awesomely as primers), I have to conclude that it is indeed the FLAT quality of spray paints that enable them to work as undercoats. There must be some element in the satins spray ranges (and glosses for sure) that prevent them from properly curing on minis. Which also means of course that I have serious adhesion concerns with regard to acrylic paint not sticking to a satin finish. ***Many of you have successfully used various cheap, generic flat sprays as primers like Walmart's black primer on minis. with great results. Again, I have to conclude that it's the flat finish that allows it to function as a primer. The satin finish particles might be too "smooth" or "closed" on a molecular level for acrylic paint to bite into. ***With anything new for modeling, try whatever you use on a small area of a mini. first before commiting to anything. …it seems that in the end I may indeed need to resort to buying one of Army Painter's color primers to undercoat my Nurgle! At least their prices are slightly better than GW's. |
Baranovich | 21 Feb 2018 11:13 p.m. PST |
@Black Cavalier, Do you find that acrylic mini. paints adhere well to the camo spray colors? I assume you meant that you're using the camo sprays as undercoats and then painting over them with mini. paints? Have you used them on both plastic and metal minis? |
ced1106 | 28 Feb 2018 10:05 p.m. PST |
Keep up the research! I use the flat Krylon (?) Camouflage brown spray frequently. It's a dark brown. I then zenithal prime with Army Painter's Leather Brown. It's an excellent undercoat, and, of course, can be used as a basecoat with a brown Strong Tone Ink for wooden stuff. Even though it's $15 USD a can, when you're doing 50+ treasure chests, tables, and chairs, you're saving a lot of time with the Leather Brown color. (You'd need to paint a medium shade of brown on top of the camouflage if you only use that as your primer.) |
billthecat | 01 Mar 2018 7:22 p.m. PST |
What Winston Smith said…. Like most tools and materials, using something properly is far more important than the often minute differences between brands… |
ced1106 | 23 Mar 2018 11:49 p.m. PST |
fwiw, Z on the Reaper forums reported a problem with Krylon Color Master semi gloss primer. link |
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