GGouveia | 30 Jan 2018 8:55 a.m. PST |
I realize the Bf109e4 had a better role rate and speed then the hurricane. I also realize the bf109e4 could not be followed in a steep diving turn however the Hurricane has a better turn radius thus was better at turning. So why is the bf109 considered in general in wargaming to be more maneuverable yet the hurricane has a tighter turn radius? It should be the equal in maneuverability but the bf109 rolls like a spit? However it should be slower. Also which bf109e version be more readily available in the Battle of Britain? E4-1 e4-3 Or e4-4? Thanks, |
Timmo uk | 30 Jan 2018 9:20 a.m. PST |
The chap flying it often was the deciding factor. Inexperienced pilots often weren't pulling the tightest turns that the airframe was capable of and that's how more seasoned pilots could gauge the quality of the opposition. On the airframes I'm not sure but I guess the speed advantage and the roll rate make for a significant benefit. I often think we can be guilty of conceiving air combat in too much of a 2D sense and thus separate the capability of the aircraft in all three axis: roll, pitch and yaw. In reality all three combine with speed to effect overall manoeuvrability. |
GGouveia | 30 Jan 2018 9:47 a.m. PST |
Bth2 classifies the Hurricane 1 as spd 7 maneuver 5. Me109e4-4 emile as did 7 man 6 with a bonus roll rate and an asterisk meaning it outmaneuvers any 6s without an asterisk. Spitfire mk1 is rated like the me109. I thought maybe drop the hurricane to a 6 spd and increase maneuver to a 6. The mk1 Spitfire does not have an asterisk so it will lose maneuver advantage to the e4 which to me makes no sense. |
kevanG | 30 Jan 2018 12:03 p.m. PST |
This is an interesting one because the hurricane is about the only plane which feels broken when set in the granular BTH stat system. My solution after long thought For BoB in BTH, I drop the me109E from 6*underlined to a straight 6 manouvre below altitude band 4 and simultaniously increase the hurricane up from 5 to a 6 underlined below altitude 4. This matches a manoeuvre advantage to the hurricane at the lower altitudes (1-3) with an advantage on break turns for the hurricane and spitfire. Hurricanes can out-turn the 109 low, but are outperformed at altitude which is about right. Warning…Do not apply this in the pacific nor any games against me109F or G or fw190's in the desert. I would only make desert hurricanes a 5 underline in the desert (and russia!) and keep them as the rule written 5 in the far east Hurricanes couldn't match the zero at any altitude and it is specifically to get the interactions of hurricane/ spitfire/me109E. further to the above, I have toyed with the idea of making the me109 increase speed to an 8 at altitude 6 and the spit mkI dropping it's manoeuvre * to just a 6 underline. This makes the me109 more maneuverable at alt 6 and with an advantage of extra speed in that hard dive makes Me109 dives from alt 6 difficult for any spit to tail! |
GGouveia | 30 Jan 2018 12:34 p.m. PST |
KevanG great ideas. I've decided to make the Hurricane a spd 6.5. Odd turns goes to a 7 spd, made it a 6 maneuver. Dropped the asterisk for me109, kept both spit and me109 as underlined. Your ideas are great and I.might try those for the Finest Hour campaign. |
FABET01 | 30 Jan 2018 6:43 p.m. PST |
Can't answer for a specific set of rules (you'd have to ask the author), but they may be trying to account for the 109s low stall and recovery speed. In a tight situation their pilots could nose up, stall and drop back down rolling behind or inside their pursuers for example). It's not exactly a tighter turn, but the end position can be similar. |
Fish | 31 Jan 2018 12:06 a.m. PST |
A Hurricane outturns a 109E!? :o News to me, but I never actually researched this any. One very important factor is also the rate of climb. I'm pretty sure 109 outclimbed Hurricane. Can't recall if Spit had even better ROC though… Like Timmo uk said, pilots are THE deciding factor. See how much better the more experienced Polish pilots of Sq 303 were compared to the, generally, rather novice Brits. Also, us Finns had VERY through pilot training (probably one of the best, if not the best in the world, and look at the unrivaled kill ratios during Winter War (with the rather bad Fokker D.XXI) and during Continuation War. In the latter, we did have better aircraft Brewster B.239 (although in very inferior and limited numbers) basically only during '41 and I think the kill ratios of that are best ever. For the remaining part of the war ('42-44) the Soviets had superior planes and numbers but the quality of pilots was the deciding factor.
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BattlerBritain | 31 Jan 2018 6:34 a.m. PST |
Hurricane out turned both Spitfire and 109E, but beat the Spit by a tiny fraction, the 109E by quite a margin. The 109E's roll rate was about the same as the Spit but both had slow roll rate at high speed. Hurricane was slower than both by about 40mph in max level flight. Some good flight performance comparisons in Stephen Bungay's "Most Dangerous Enemy". |
GGouveia | 31 Jan 2018 10:30 a.m. PST |
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GGouveia | 31 Jan 2018 10:30 a.m. PST |
Great stuff guys. I'll look into "Most Dangerous Enemy." I think I will use KevanG's recommendations. |
kevanG | 01 Feb 2018 12:38 p.m. PST |
That 40 mph difference was due in large to the recorded speeds being set at different times. The hurricane could do 330 when using the correct aviation fuel. ie. the same stuff the Spits and 109's used to get 360 mph. I considered that the speed difference in the normal manouvre didnt matter too much and that the point it did matter was when individual aircraft were tailing each other. I toyed with a + and – to the speeds. This giving potentially 2 increments across the single value of a full speed range. If you were a + and the enemy was a standard, you rolled a dice and a 5-6 you closed one hex when on the tail. You had made your extra speed count. If you had two steps, you closed one hex on a 3+. the same worked in reverse…if you were slower, the tailer opened up the distance to outrun you. Top aces got the usual +2. JA +1 and sprogs -1. As fare as ratings go, SPit, 109E, & 110 were all 7 whirlwind above altitude 3, beaufighter and the Hurricane was a 7- (always the hurricane!) spit Mk V and 109Fs are a 7+ |
GGouveia | 20 Feb 2018 2:56 p.m. PST |
I have played a lot of BTH2 lately and I simply made the Hurricane a spd 6 on even turns and spd 7 on odd turns as their high speed for a Mk1 was 325. Hurricanes I made a 6 Man instead of 5. I dropped the asterisk from the me109e-4 but kept it for the Spitfire. However upon further research the Hurricane's peak performance seems to be at below 14,000 whereas an Me109 has peak performance at above 18,000. German bombers however mainly flew at 10-15,000 feet thus negating the me109 high altitude advantage. So I will make the Hurricane a 6 with an underline allowing it to turn quick at Alt4 or less. Me109 will be a 6 only at Alt 4 or less thus allowing the hurricane the turn advantage at lower altitude as it did. The Spitfire will retain it's 6 asterisk and underlined. The Me109e will be a 6 underline with an asterisk at alt 5/6. Common German tactic was to bounce the hurricanes from above. Kevan great ideas btu I would make these changes at 4 or below as alt 4 in BTH is 10,000 to 19,000 feet. |
kevanG | 07 Mar 2018 12:21 p.m. PST |
After reading this….. PDF link I am tending to agree with your assessment. |