"Continental Inn Changes Ownership" Topic

The HMGS conventions aren't growing, they are flat/declining, so if the location raises their prices, then you need to raise the prices for the attendees, which includes convention attendees, dealers and flea market sellers in order to pay the price increase from the location.

And yet you would like us to return to the most expensive venue, where attendance continuously declined?

I would love to have a convention near Pittsburgh, personally. I mean, there's space a plenty and hotels. PLus as the WBC is a witness, a summer convention in a place like seven springs can do very well

Yeah gee sorry there Bowman and TSD101, looks like I hit a nerve with the two of you, dial it down, I get it.

I was simply stating that I think spreading out the conventions would be a better way to go than having three in the same spot is all.

How about one in Lancaster, one in Valley Forge and one in Gettysburg, does that make either of you happy, let me know so I know you two fellas are ok.

looks like I hit a nerve with the two of you

No worries, you didn't. We've already learned Fredericksburg does not work based on cost.

How about one in Lancaster, one in Valley Forge and one in Gettysburg

I'm okay with this.

Double G said:

"No they don't and yes they will, renovations cost money and that investment has to be made back, it's made back by raising prices."

Seems reasonable. If they really do upgrade the place, as opposed do just doing cosmetic changes, I can live with that. One thing I'll be curious to see is if they come up with another entrance to the vendor hall building as that is a bit of a hike up and down hill and might not be as fun to do in early March.

"The HMGS conventions aren't growing, they are flat/declining…."

And other than the standard "Greying of the hobby" excuse, who is looking at other reasons why that is happening, because I am pretty sure there are other reasons?

"Will be interesting to see how it plays out; maybe the leverage HMGS can use is they'll commit to three conventions there, …..Then the issue is three shows in the same location, which is not popular with the attendees near as I can tell."

I don't think anyone disagrees with that (except the mayor of Lancaster). What I do see is a risk adverse organization willing to make any meaningful changes that might attract people back, or attract more new people.

Have the flea market Friday afternoon, or move it to evening – doesn't matter. That's just rearranging the deck chairs. As you (Double G) and I noted, the gaming area is over half empty. Why?

Registering hundreds of games with little chance of filling them only guarantees higher costs, disappointed GMs, crowded layouts, and likely lowering the quality offerings. It also guarantees only considering similar "large" venues when clearly that isn't required.

TSD101; maybe Fredericksburg was a reach on my part, just trying to make the most people happy as possible, sharing the wealth as it were.

Too bad about Fredericksburg, I saw a lot of faces there that I do not see in Lancaster, I guess at the end of the day there weren't enough new faces to make it work. If we had kept the Lancaster numbers but added gamers from the south, it would have worked, but we lost too many from Lancaster and the new ones from the south did not make up for it, a real shame.

So maybe Cold Wars in Valley Forge, Historicon in Lancaster and Fall In in Gettysburg?

Again, the goal is to make the majority of the attendees happy and I gather all three in one spot is not doing it.

where attendance continuously declined?

And your proof of that. Correlation does not mean causation.
I said many time, I know around 10 people that stopped going during that time, (including myself) and they all live in the Norfolk, Va are. I guarantee that none said "I'm not going till they move the convention 2 hours further away". Some lost jobs, some had kids start college, some found they didn't need to travel to enjoy their hobby and some got very ill.

…..looks like I hit a nerve with the two of you, dial it down, I get it.

You missed the point, George.

Your comment from 7:41 pm yesterday is in stark contradiction of your comment just an hour earlier. I simply pointed that out. I thought I dialed it down.

How about one in Lancaster, one in Valley Forge and one in Gettysburg, ….

I'm OK with that too. Where in Gettysburg?

Too bad about Fredericksburg,…..

Yes. The attendance numbers declined every year and it was the most expensive venue we had. If the numbers had gone up, we'd still be there.

And your proof of that. Correlation does not mean causation.
I said many time, I know around 10 people that stopped going during that time, (including myself) and they all live in the Norfolk, Va are……. Some lost jobs, some had kids start college, some found they didn't need to travel to enjoy their hobby and some got very ill.

I don't get your point. Because of various reasons, you and 10 others didn't go to the convention. Isn't that direct proof of the statement regarding declining attendance? And don't disregard the cost of the venue. Even if the attendance stays the same at Historicon at Lancaster, the venue is so much cheaper.

Fall In in Gettysburg?

Early Nov. is still plenty warm enough for those battlefield excursions.

"Where in Gettysburg?"………..The Ike.

You wouldn't need All Stars for the dealers, there are two very large function rooms in the back of the hotel where the dealers could go, run the games in the other large function room and the large ballrooms in the front of the hotel.

The conventions are flat/declining due to a number of reasons. Moving Historicon three times did not help, moving Fall In twice did not help either, if you want stability, stop moving conventions, moving will upset a segment of the attendees and they will not come back.

Others drop out of the hobby, get sick, pass away. When this happens, you need to bring in new blood, is HMGS bringing new blood in, are they promoting the hobby, educating potentially new gamers about the hobby?

It's a great hobby, in order to flourish into the future, it needs to grow.

None of this has anything to do with dealers, the dealer hall or the merits of running the flea market at night vs during the day on Friday, wargaming conventions are and should be primarily about wargaming. Anything else like dealer halls, flea markets, guest speakers, seminars, painting competitions, reenactors, hobby university, etc, etc are window dressing, nothing more, nothing less.

HMGS needs to figure out how to attract more gamers to their conventions, forget about day trippers, it's about those who show up on Thursday night and stay till Sunday.

They are the engine that drives the bus; well them and naturally the game masters as without them and all they do, there are no conventions, period.

+1 Double G. :-)

HG, I never fully understood the huge importance of game masters until the time at our local convention here in MA called Havoc my friend Mike Sammarco ran a Vicksburg game right next to my booth. Him and his friend Chris got there on Saturday at the crack of dawn in a rented a UHaul for the large purpose built terrain, unloaded it and set up the game, then ran it twice, on their feet all day long, ran out for a quick lunch in between the two sessions, then at night packed it all up and hauled it out of there.

The game was a huge hit, as are all of Mike's games; it was a thankless job to be frank, but I am sure the attendees who participated in the two games were thankful for their efforts, I know I was, it was superb eye candy and a lot of fun to watch unfold………….without him and others like him, there are no conventions. Maybe we should start there, figure out what to do to make the conventions more attractive to guys like him and go from there.

I really don't understand the strange need to move these around constantly, or to have multiple locations that are not far enough apart from each other to make any real difference.

I guess I get the desire to go someplace different, but is it really that big of a deal? I'd wager most of us spend almost all our time in whatever venue hosts the convention.

I also understand why a dealer might want the chance at some fresh blood, but again, I seriously doubt Valley Forge or Gettysburg attract a different market from Lancaster.

Does anyone consider the advantages of having them all in one place? Familiarity with the venue, experience with setups and designs that work? How about bargaining power with the venue, putting whatever leverage three events offers to get the best deals.

The Host had descended to a very unpleasant quality level, but it is now clear that the new owners are putting significant investment in. I don't expect the place to be a Four Seasons anytime soon, but it seems to be headed well back into the tolerable range. And, there are few locations that offer as many alternative places to stay VERY close to the venue.

It just seems to me, the last eight years or so kind of look like some kind of KGB plot to sabotage the HMGS convention program. Maybe, just maybe, if people stop poking and messing around and just let the thing be for a few minutes, it will start to recover.

Sometimes it just seems there is absolutely nothing that people don't feel the irresistible urge to break.

And, before someone frets over the new owners raising prices (and ignoring the hypocrisy of people who cried about the Host being a grotesque hole worrying about getting priced out of it), just about every other place we could go probably costs more.

I like Gettysburg as much as anyone, but the setup there is terrible, and if I recall, that All-Star dump is very expensive. So, I don't quite get the logic of moving someplace more costly to escape a possible price increase. Shoot yourself before someone else does?

I like Gettysburg as much as anyone, but the setup there is terrible, and if I recall, that All-Star dump is very expensive.

Let me throw something else into the mix. The Ike and All Star are for sale. You really wanna plan a convention around a facility (and I'm being gracious) that's for sale?

Yeah gee sorry there Bowman and TSD101, looks like I hit a nerve with the two of you, dial it down, I get it.

I was simply stating that I think spreading out the conventions would be a better way to go than having three in the same spot is all.

I'm surprised at your suggestion. You're a business man – and judging at the length of time you've been in business – a good one at that.

So…. You go to a convention for a few years. Every year you see less of your customers. Every year you barely breaking even. Your profits are less and less. And the price of the convention goes up and up. At what point to you throw in the towel and say this isn't for me?

I saw the numbers at Fall In. In a few years there would be no Historicon – at least not without pulling money from Cold Wars and Fall In. You never want to be in that position.

I know that sometimes we lose the tone of a conversation over a post. My tone is strictly confusion.

"Will be interesting to see how it plays out; maybe the leverage HMGS can use is they'll commit to three conventions there, …..Then the issue is three shows in the same location, which is not popular with the attendees near as I can tell."

Did anyone attend John Spiess meeting at Fall In? Here is what he proposed:

2018: All three convention at the Host
2019: Historicon at the VFCC, Cold Wars and Fall In at the Host
2020: Historicon at VFCC, Cold Wars at Hershey (maybe??) and Fall In at the Host.

Let's see how this all pans out. All I know is this BoD are working hard to keep the conventions alive and profitable. Kudos to them!

Hershey for me is practically back-yard, but unless HMGS is holding the owners' families for ransom, I have a serious concern that the costs will be exorbitant.

TheKing30,
As far as the three HGMS conventions, I still do well enough to continue to attend all three of them, the move to Fredricksburg allowed me to sell to a largely new customer base, which was very good for business.

At this point, I really don't know what the answer is; if you move the conventions, you lose people, if you run them all in the same spot you lose people, no matter what you do, someone will not be happy.

We're locked in to the Host for all three conventions this year; we'll see what that brings and also what 2019 does as well.

Back to the original point. I had reservations at the Continental Inn, and got a call a few weeks ago informing me that my reservation had been cancelled due to the fact that they were under new management and they were going to be going through a renovation at that time. I asked if they thought they would be open by July, and they were not able to tell me. I also asked if it was a renovation of the existing structure, or if it was going to be demolished and rebuilt, but again, they didn't have that information.

I've been staying there at most of the Lancaster HMGS conventions for many years, and while the rooms were a little worn, they were not terrible, and the price was reasonable. It's location was a good one for Cold Wars, and the addition of the light in front of the Dutch Wonderland made making the left turn onto Route 30 to get to the Host MUCH easier.

I ended up finding a room down the road a bit, for around $20 USD more per night. It'll be nicer, but I doubt the breakfast will be as good, and I'll miss my "tradition" of staying at the old Continental Inn. :(

I ended up finding a room down the road a bit, for around $20 USD USD more per night. It'll be nicer, but I doubt the breakfast will be as good, and I'll miss my "tradition" of staying at the old Continental Inn. :(

You put into words exactly what I was feeling. It was always a nice feeling pulling up to the Continental. Like seeing an old friend.

Like I said earlier – everything changes.

"Did we not just learn after 5 years the FEC doesn't work?"

I think we learned that Fredricksburg was settling into a smaller convention, that felt fresh and different from the Lancaster Host conventions. My northern Virginia based gaming group, who've been travelling three times a year to Pennslylvania for twenty years enjoyed the con and different feeling it had.

HC in Fredericksburg was also able to dramatically increase the number of members from Virginia and the Carolinas. We'll see how much HMGS membership will drop now that there's no reason for those folks to join the club. I would like our club to grow the hobby, and I think a Con south of the Mason Dixon line is a good thing.

It's my understanding that Historicon at the FEC continued to pay for itself, despite being the most expensive venue (four days of facility rental vice three days for FI and CW). Did we ever get financial reports indicating that HC actually LOST money at FEC?

Our group has decided that we will attend CW and FI this year, but will skip Historicon. Instead, we plan to attend the Origins convention in Columbus. Five HMGS cons in a row at the Host (FI17, CW18, HC18, FI18, CW19) was just too much of the same thing for us.

Your Mileage May Vary, of course.

Origins has nowhere near the number of historical miniatures events as it used to.

I think we learned that Fredricksburg was settling into a smaller convention, that felt fresh and different from the Lancaster Host conventions. My northern Virginia based gaming group, who've been travelling three times a year to Pennslylvania for twenty years enjoyed the con and different feeling it had.

So the goal of moving the convention was to shrink it down to a smaller size and make it enjoyable for a smaller population?

It's my understanding that Historicon at the FEC continued to pay for itself, despite being the most expensive venue (four days of facility rental vice three days for FI and CW). Did we ever get financial reports indicating that HC actually LOST money at FEC?

So the goal here was to take a profitable convention and bring it to the point where it breaks even?

Both of the things you mention seem like a failure. Unless we wanted to shrink the convention and make no money?

I think a Con south of the Mason Dixon line is a good thing.

Because apparently HMGS South and Mid South don't exist.

Because apparently HMGS South and Mid South don't exist.

I think it is understood that the context was one of the HMGS cons. See the comments at the top of this page to put it into proper perspective. (Including one of yours, LOL)

Your Mileage May Vary, of course.

Yours may too, once you get there. The amount of historical games has declined a lot. But that may not affect your group, depending on their interests. Just FYI.

Let me throw something else into the mix. The Ike and All Star are for sale. You really wanna plan a convention around a facility (and I'm being gracious) that's for sale?

Maybe HMGS could buy the place and create a massive gaming themed hotel and convention center. Run all types of game event throughout the year, including the man to man recreation on July 3rd of Pickett's Charge. :-)

The Ike (along with the All Star Sports Complex) have been for sale as long as I can remember (ten years? Maybe more?) The owner passed away many years ago and left the facility to senior staff there that he liked.

Likely the Host was for sale for a while too.

I fail to see the difference between walking to the All Star from the Ike and now having to walk a good distance to the dealer hall at the Host.

I believe that Double G is correct in that one of the conventions could be held at the Ike by having it all inside the hotel. Of course trying to put on essentially the same con three times a year would not work there.

Also, likely convention centers such as the FEC and Lancaster facility are not particularly subject to market pressures since they will survive on local government money regardless whether they are busy or not.

HMGS finds themselves in a corner by trying to put on the same convention three times a year, reducing their options of facilities they can reasonably afford.

I still haven't seen one reasonable, rational reason there is a compelling need to have more than one location, especially when all the others mentioned are functionally in the same market area as far as attracting attendees.

The Ike is an OLD facility, still for sale, and without the benefit of new money coming into it. Not to mention that dysfunctional setup with the All-Star.

Valley Forge mixes us up with the whole casino setup, which I just can't believe makes it attractive in terms of cost, parking, and other factors.

Hershey's got to cost a fortune.

None of these spots match Lancaster for the number of other, reasonably priced hotels right around the venue…or, for that matter, for things like restaurants, stores, etc.

If HMGS had all three conventions in Lancaster for a few years, and attendance was declining, I'd understand the discussion. Certainly, Historicon suffered all the losses it did in other locations.

As I mentioned before, there are advantages to concentrating the program in one spot. Familiarity with the venue for staff (and, let's be honest, we don't need added difficulty factors there…it'll take three days to get through the prereg line). Also, bargaining power with three full events to negotiate together.

What, exactly, is the advantage of finding a less-suitable, more expensive facility 45 minutes away? Just so we can say they're in different places?

I think it is understood that the context was one of the HMGS cons. See the comments at the top of this page to put it into proper perspective. (Including one of yours, LOL)

Oh I perfectly understood the intention, and am countering with the fact that the south already has plenty of cons.

Guns of August, Williamsburg VA (semi-annual?)
Siege of Augusta, Augusta GA
Nashcon, Nashville TN
Southern Front, Raleigh NC (semi-annual?)
Hurricon, Kissimmee FL
Recon, Orlando FL
Rapiercon, Jacksonville FL

complete 2018 gaming convention spreadsheet here -
link

B

CD said:

"I still haven't seen one reasonable, rational reason there is a compelling need to have more than one location…"

Well, one could argue that attendance has been flat to falling at the two cons currently at the Host, but then that begs the question, why? Is HMGS currently offering a product that people are interested in attending? I'd feel pretty safe to say that most historical miniature games don't attend an HMGS convention. In fact, I know more people who used to regular attend HMGS conventions, and no longer do, than I now know that go. Why?

Pat Condray once said that the purpose of his miniature company was to support the hospitality industry. With hotel prices now in the $100 USD+ range, he wasn't far off the mark.

I looked at an old calendar the other day and noticed that the Viking Forge attended 24 conventions and toy soldier shows in 1991.

Sigh. Those were the days.

I've noticed the decline of the family-owned businesses in Lancaster (The Continental, Lapp's, The Congress) and the rise of the corporate big-box stores, hotel chains and restaurants. (Target, Hampton Inn, Red Robin, Fairfield Inn and their ilk)

You can't get a meal made from scratch any more and everything comes out of a box or a can.

Welcome to the future!

Wow, quite the spreadsheet Blutarski! One correction. RECON is 26-29 April, not in May. RECON is always the last full weekend in April and HURRICON the last full weekend in September. RECON 2017 was the first weekend in May due to a move to the new facility and a conflict with an event previously booked there.

And though it is at the Park Inn by Radisson Resort and Conference Center Orlando it is actually in Kissimmee, a suburb of Orlando.

While I can't speak for the offseason, if you want to hold a con at Hershey in the summertime, Don Greenwood ( former WBC director ) said recently that it would be twice to three times the rate as the Host.

My guess is that Hershey would not be too bad during a period when the park and other attractions are closed. I have been to that facility for work events several times over the years (in the fall) and found it to be an excellent facility (the oldest parts of the hotel sure remind me of the host though).

I have to agree with earlier comments that Hershey/Lancaster/Gettysburg are all roughly in the same general region. Maybe you'd get a few more from the "west" (whatever that means) at Hershey, but at what cost? Gettysburg is its own draw with the park, etc.

HMGS is under no obligation to serve any particular geographic area since has never defined its own zone of operations (used to be east – east of what? Japan?)

It really all boils down to what venues it can afford on a projected attendance number. While the venue selection is obviously important, so is what goes on inside. How has that been motivating people to come lately? HMGS has become so obsessed/focused on the next venue that it seems to neglect its core product to a large degree.

Blutarski

How can I get Little Wars added to the DB. Also the dates for Gameholecon are wrong.

2. Most garages charge in a way that makes it extremely expensive to keep coming in an out all day. I find it unlikely that HMGS would be able to negotiate some special arrangement with multiple garages.

Soooo…most garage's can never change the way they conduct their business? Like a specially negotiated pass, for unlimited ingress/egress for a specific length of time [like for multiple days of a convention]? Although I am unfamiliar with the business practices of parking lot businesses in PA, I am fairly certain almost EVERYTHING is negotiable.

Is you doubt about HMGS's planning/negotiating abilities are based upon….what specifically? Don't say past practice. This group is almost entirely new/different from the last time our group negotiated a contract at a NEW venue. And expand your thinking…HMGS doesn't have to approach multiple parking entities. They merely have to say to the CC, hey if you want our business, go get these parking spaces available to us for no more than $XX. These guys all belong to the same Chamber of Commerce. They understand the concept of mutual support. Our convention represents $$ to EVERYONE in town. parking lots, restaurants, bars, brew pubs, etc etc….Let the 600# gorilla do your negotiating for you.

Don Manser wrote..

The Lancaster Convention Center is not located in a good area. It's nothing like the Tanger Outlets / Host / Dutch Wonderland / Horse & Buggy corridor. I wouldn't park my car there after dark let alone walk around.

Just my .02 from personal experience.

Provide more insight? When, what where…etc.

Clearly people will assess "risk" differently.

What someone sees as a threat, may be different.

Based OUR individual filters, experiences, values etc.

But then, I've parked and walked the streets of Flint and Detroit, Michigan [like #1 & #3 in FBI crime stats]…so clearly my antenna tuning may differ.

And its common sense NOT to leave personal possessions in plain view of your vehicle….that includes in the ritziest of places.

"Did we not just learn after 5 years the FEC doesn't work?"

apparently not LOL.

But I do think have a con between Baltimore and DC (but not south of DC), one between Baltimore and New York (the Host is fine for this. And one around the metro area of New York.

Of course finding such place is another story.

Marc33594 & kcabai -
Go here for the gamecon spreadsheet/listing –
link

B

Thank you sir, you are a gentleman.

Marc33594 – De nada. Glad to help.

B

Soooo…most garage's can never change the way they conduct their business? Like a specially negotiated pass, for unlimited ingress/egress for a specific length of time [like for multiple days of a convention]? Although I am unfamiliar with the business practices of parking lot businesses in PA, I am fairly certain almost EVERYTHING is negotiable.

Is you doubt about HMGS's planning/negotiating abilities are based upon….what specifically? Don't say past practice. This group is almost entirely new/different from the last time our group negotiated a contract at a NEW venue. And expand your thinking…HMGS doesn't have to approach multiple parking entities. They merely have to say to the CC, hey if you want our business, go get these parking spaces available to us for no more than $XX. These guys all belong to the same Chamber of Commerce. They understand the concept of mutual support. Our convention represents $$ to EVERYONE in town. parking lots, restaurants, bars, brew pubs, etc etc….Let the 600# gorilla do your negotiating for you.

I'm always amazed at how people find it irresistible to be contrary just for the sake of it…just to argue a point and avoid acknowledgement of reality at all costs.

How often have you seen multiple parking garages, with different owners, make special arrangements for an event a few days in length? You do realize that would probably require changing programming on automated entry/exit systems, not to mention the negotiating some kind of deal…or for that matter, even reaching decision makers in the owning entities.

Anyone who's read my posts knows I'm supportive of the current BoD's efforts (though not the crowd that almost destroyed the entire program some years ago…that was incompetence and arrogance in an impressive combo). But, we also need to be realistic as to what an amateur society is going to be able to do. Let's be honest, getting the venues to clean the bathrooms once in a while would be a major victory.

We've had enough hassles and losses and damage to the convention program because people didn't want to accept reality. How about we actually take a break from that for a while.

A few quick updates and some comments. The Host is now sold out for Cold Wars. I believe they are still taking names for a waiting list. The new room furniture has all been delivered. The vendor hall is also completely sold out and full. Hopefully, the weather will be decent. Cold Wars has had bad weather 2 of the past 3 years.

With regards to potential venues for the three HMGS conventions, there are many factors to be considered. Venue cost, hotel room blocks, food & beverage minimums, hotel room prices. parking, ease of access (I run games at conventions as well, so I'm particularly sensitive to what GMs will need to do at each location), vendor loading/unloading, security, insurance, the list goes on. And maybe one more… availability.

There is no perfect venue. The facility rental cost might be very low at one, which is great, but food and hotel prices for attendees might be too high. There are a lot of moving parts that need to be considered when negotiating. And yes, everything is negotiable. Having an associated township involved with the brass tacks also helps.

We have multiple proposals that need to be considered. Hershey just submitted a revised offer this week to me, but we are still going back and forth. There is a membership meeting at Cold Wars where all of the information will be discussed, so I hope many of you will attend.

One final comment. Some have noted, and rightfully so, that HMGS needs to focus on improving our core product, games at conventions. While I'm not involved as much in all the work that's required here, I can say that I'm copied on a lot of new plans for this Cold Wars, and I think there will be some very positive and noticeable enhancements.

Anyway, apologies for the long post. If you can't make the membership meeting, I'm running a medieval siege game on Saturday night. I hope the lighting is good. Stop by and roll some dice. Should be fun.

Respectfully,
John Spiess
Treasurer
HMGS, Inc.

John thanks for the update! Very positive overall.

"There is no perfect venue"……

Boy ain't that the truth.

Historicon moved to Valley Forge, people complained about how spread out the games were, the prospect of moving it back has people complaining about how we'll be competing with a casino (what that has to do with anything is beyond me).

Historicon moved to Fredericksburg, people complained about how far it was, how noisy it was, how sterile the venue was, (a convention center that's big and boxy, really?) how messy the bathrooms were, so it moved back to Lancaster, now the complaint is three conventions on the same spot (which truth be told I'm not a fan of myself) and how the tennis barn has been renovated and the entrance is too far to walk. Oh yeah, and the bathrooms are messy; again with the bathrooms.

Hersey has been mentioned as a landing spot; nope, too touristy. Gettysburg has been thrown out as a possible spot, nope, the Ike is a dump.

Bottom line is wherever the conventions land, someone, somewhere, sometime is not going to be happy.

I hope whatever happens, the bathrooms are clean.

Let's face it Double G, any location works if we are both there, checking out games and minis, drinking beer and poking fun :D