| Bagration1812 | 28 Apr 2018 4:34 a.m. PST |
holdit – I don't know about your comment regarding historical precision and motive, but you could be correct. The problem with Swords is that there are comments in it like the passage referenced above that lack sources. When challenged, Kevin says Col. Elting was an expert and it's up to the challenger to prove him wrong. Swords is a great read, but as serious history it simply falls short in terms of sourcing. I've had a copy for 25ish years and have enjoyed it multiple times, but I've learned over time that if I want to confirm something in it, as often as not, there is no sourcing provided. Kevin will now post about how Swords has XXX hundred foot/end notes…etc. |
| holdit | 28 Apr 2018 6:30 a.m. PST |
@Bagration I get your point. Elting doesn't give point-by-point sources, but does provide a chapter-by-chapter bibliography. Unfortunately, that doesn't help if you're trying to nail down the source for a particular claim. Nevertheless, if there's a specific reason for disagreeing with something in Elting, then I'd be the last person to shout it down. What is rather irritating, however, is what appears to be a Pavlovian response to any mention of Elting that shows itself in the form of demanding references just for (what appears to be) the sake of it. Why was indigo dye scarce? It's mildly interesting, but ultimately, I don't care. What matters is that for a time there was an attempt to move to white uniforms. That's the important bit, in the same way that knowing that it was possible to move an artillery piece using manpower and straps, is important, but accurately awarding the credit for the invention of the bricole isn't. |
| Bagration1812 | 29 Apr 2018 4:20 p.m. PST |
I agree with you. The reflexive responses from both detract a bit from the discussion. Still, the back and forth has lots of value to me in terms of challenging assumptions and accepted wisdom. |
| von Winterfeldt | 29 Apr 2018 11:15 p.m. PST |
no source is a substitude for critical reflexion and examination. Just think, why was it such a problem to switch to white in the French infantry, while other nations did not have any problems with white uniforms? |
| Brechtel198 | 30 Apr 2018 4:26 a.m. PST |
'Reflection and examination' are a result of research and study. And, yes, credible sources are necessary for any discussion of historical subjects. The usual problem with 'reflection and examination' as well as discussion here is that it tends to get personal with unnecessary personal comments being made about posters with whom others disagree. That is not 'reflection and examination' but, instead, personal ad hominem and pejorative commentary. And that does not add to the collective knowledge. The reasons for the proposed change from dark (imperial) blue to white for the French infantry have been posted and discussed. The bottom line is the white uniforms were disliked and blue was retained. |
| holdit | 03 May 2018 2:44 a.m. PST |
Still, the back and forth has lots of value to me in terms of challenging assumptions and accepted wisdom. Agreed, as long as there is actual information being exchanged. Nevertheless, even solid primary sources seem to be useless when it comes to changing the opinions of those directly involved in an argument. I suspect the real value is obtained by the spectators, who can quietly decide for themselves whose case is the more credible. |
| Marc the plastics fan | 04 May 2018 12:04 a.m. PST |
Still cool uniforms to paint though – got to love white uniforms with purple facings. And as above, it is indeed interesting to hear the sides argue – that way more information is released Marc |
| SHaT1984 | 31 Dec 2020 4:30 p.m. PST |
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| Allan F Mountford | 01 Jan 2021 3:48 a.m. PST |
@SHaT1984
Very interesting article and mostly new to me. Thanks for posting.
As an aside, why don't we use images of indigo powder like the one in the article to approximate French blue for our uniform references? |
| 4th Cuirassier | 01 Jan 2021 5:30 a.m. PST |
That vat of indigo dye is a beautiful colour. You can see why they wanted it for uniforms. It is Humbrol 25 to perfection. link What I'd like to know is what was used to make the "Garter blue" used in British facings and cavalry coats. That always appears blue-black. Was something else added to indigo, eg lamp black, and then fixed somehow, or was it obtained from a different route altogether? |
| Allan F Mountford | 01 Jan 2021 6:57 a.m. PST |
@4th Cuirassier
It certainly looks a good match!
Don't know about the 'Garter blue'. At the risk of stating the obvious, do we not have access to contemporary colour mixing methods or specifications? |
paints brigs for the British fleet.
