"Napoleon Wasn’t Defeated by the Russians" Topic

Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture gives too much credit to cannons

link

Amicalement
Armand

Another "Great Secret" is revealed. The article is well enough researched, as are so many of the recent publications exposing a great unknown truth, but then slips into hyperbole.

Disease undoubtedly ravaged Napoleon's Army in Russia, as it surely did in Egypt or the Peninsula, of course.

Starvation did not help. It did turn jolly chilly at night too. Plus of course, the Russians did actually fire lots of cannon and firearms and would not give in. Throw in the odd Cossack and thoroughly disgruntled villager, a huge country with obvious challenges to lines of communication and you have a recipe for disaster.

Conclusion; lots (well, a very small sample) of Napoleon's men died, were buried and had been exposed to/carried the germ that caused typhus, as they were lice infested. Ah. Does not mean they had the disease itself or that it caused their deaths.

Or that the Russians were not also infested with lice, typhus, dysentery, inadequate food, etc. These were factors common to all sides on battlefields if the era

Yes, but the Russians were probably more resistant to typhus than the French, since they grew up in the areas where it was endemic. Western Europeans who had never been exposed before would be much more vulnerable, like Native American populations were when exposed to European diseases for the first time.

Somehow instead of cannons a
Whoooooooooooooo, Whooooooooo, WHOOOOOOOOOOO,
the winds of winter sound wouldn't cut it.

Typhus was killing Western European soldiers before 1812. As did dysentery, it thrived in conditions of crowding and lack of hygiene, particulary when resistance was broken down by exposure and poor nutrition- a 'disease of the camp.'

Yes, but the Russians were probably more resistant to typhus than the French, since they grew up in the areas where it was endemic. Western Europeans who had never been exposed before would be much more vulnerable, like Native American populations were when exposed to European diseases for the first time.

Not according mycrobiology. First time typhus made its appearance -at least, described symptoms coincide with those from a typhus epidemic- was during the siege of Baza (Granada) by Castilian troops, in 1489. There are not hard evidence -i.e paleomicrobiological analysis- that confirm that it was, effectively, typhus. Circumstancial evidence is compelling, though.

First confirmed cases of epidemic typhus came from skeletons of dead buried during one of the sieges of Douai (France) during the War of Spanish Succession. Paleomicrobiologists were able to isolate the DNA of Rickettsia prowazekii in the bone marrow of the skeletons. Main cause of death between English POWs in the Seven Years War has been attributed to typhus. Apparently, it has been debated that the bacteria is original of the Americas and was brought by Spaniards to the Old World (in which case Baza epidemics wasn't typhus, but other, undiagnosed, disease)

Therefore, we can conclude that your hypothesis is not sustained by available evidence.

Well said, BCantwell. A reminder that a moment to think before posting has its uses.

Napoleon did not know his Russian enemies as well as he thought.
This was a strategic defeat any way you look at it.

Wait, he lost?

Right, basileus, but 1812 typhus wasn't endemic in Western Europe like it was in Poland and Belarus. So while there were recorded epidemics of it scattered through Western Europe at various periods, there hadn't been one for awhile, lowering immunity levels in that population.

If only they'd bathed…

"If only they'd bathed…"

Russians had banya (something like sauna) by regulation once a week, and more often if possible.

Foowraps also helped – boil some clothe, let it dry and you have essentially infinite clean "socks" – changed daily by regulation

Also "bloomers" – cheap loose fitting linen (or cotton sometimes) pantaloons, easily cleaned or replaced.

Mserafin

That is not correct. Typhus was pretty common in Western Europe in XVIth to XIXth Centuries, being endemic in France, Italy, Spain, Bohemia, Austria and the Empire. Actually, in any place where lice were common (and that is like saying anywhere in Europe before late XIXth Century), typhus was endemic. Again, available evidence doesn't support your hypothesis of Russians or Polish having higher immunity to Typhus than French, Italians or Germans back in 1812.

hold on surely the lice were Russian – in Russia, this is acknowleged even by the French soldier, so de facto Russians beat very well the Grande Armée.

Quite interesting Antonio… thanks!.

Amicalement
Armand

I didn't realize Napoleon's French army had so much in common with the Martians in HG Well's "War of the Worlds".

A strategy (stumbled into or planned) of having a overly big army, with many unseasoned troops, march for months through a bad climate, with poor supplies and food,(poor decision by the French!)worked. The French model of living off the land with a professional for short campaigns close to their bases FAILED. It was very predictable.