"Steve Jackson Games Launches Triplanetary Kickstarter" Topic
61 Posts
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Tango01 | 10 Jan 2018 3:07 p.m. PST |
"Steve Jackson Games is bringing back another classic. For you old-time gamers out there, you might've had a copy of Triplanetary. It originally came out in 1973. The ship-to-ship combat game has been played by millions, and it's looking to get an update, as Steve's launched a Kickstarter for a new version of it. The rules are still as you remember, but the scenarios have all been gathered together. Plus, there's new campaign rules…." Main page link Amicalement Armand |
Fred Cartwright | 10 Jan 2018 3:15 p.m. PST |
The first GDW game I bought. Came in a cardboard tube, containing the map on plastic covered thick paper, a sheet of die cut counters, the rules and a couple of chinagraph pencils to mark your movement tracks on the map. Bought it mail order from Games Workshop when they were still a general RPG/ board game store. Played it for hours. Enormous fun. |
dragon6 | 10 Jan 2018 5:23 p.m. PST |
My copy of Triplanetary came in a long cardboard box with a rolled sheet of clear acetate film, a paper printed game map, rules, diecut counters, and… maybe.. a couple of chinagraph markers can't really remember if I bought them separately. GDW was only a boardgame company back then |
Mithmee | 10 Jan 2018 6:07 p.m. PST |
Not that great looking of a game. |
Parzival | 10 Jan 2018 6:29 p.m. PST |
Had a copy that I acquired second hand years ago. I think I sold it here. It just wasn't something my group was going to play, alas. I did loosely base my vector rules for two games on it, though I added more detail. Good to see it come back, but probably not one I'll fund. |
Dynaman8789 | 10 Jan 2018 6:55 p.m. PST |
My copy has a white map and came with a grease pencil. Interesting concepts but it never really caught on with me. Still have it and will not sell it though. |
David Johansen | 10 Jan 2018 8:04 p.m. PST |
At last! Space combat for Ogre! I am so stoked! I do wish they'd make some proper rocket ship miniatures to go with it though :D |
Fred Cartwright | 11 Jan 2018 4:37 a.m. PST |
Not that great looking of a game. No. Production standards were a bit more basic in those days! Goes to show that it doesn't always equate to good game play. You can have a lot of fun with the most basic looking game components. |
Parzival | 11 Jan 2018 10:07 a.m. PST |
Correction to my previous post-- it turns out, I still have my copy! Big flat box, ugly white coated map , chits, etc.. Might have to see if my gaming guys will give an old classic a go after all. |
Guthroth | 11 Jan 2018 11:37 a.m. PST |
Again, isolationism rules at SJG. No one outside the US is allowed to buy. Very upset. My boycott of all SJG products regardless of source will continue. |
TheStarRanger | 11 Jan 2018 12:30 p.m. PST |
No, they excluded international orders from the Kickstarter but now that it has met the goal, international pre-orders for Triplanetary are being taken at their Warehouse 23 site for the same price as the Kickstarter – link |
Guthroth | 11 Jan 2018 12:48 p.m. PST |
Same price but not shipping. Lazy, discriminatory Isolationism. If I'm not good enough to be part of the KS, their games are not good enough for me. |
Parzival | 11 Jan 2018 1:54 p.m. PST |
No, you'd rather have something shipped across the Atlantic Ocean for free, because how could that possibly be more expensive than shipping from Texas to Tennessee? :-p |
Guthroth | 11 Jan 2018 2:08 p.m. PST |
Did I say free ? Please don't add to my words. Read them without your predjudices |
Parzival | 11 Jan 2018 2:41 p.m. PST |
"Same price but not shipping." So you expect the shipping cost to Europe to be the same as shipping cost to US. So not free, but an absurd level of discount to expect. |
Guthroth | 11 Jan 2018 3:07 p.m. PST |
Again you insult me by adding to my words. |
Akalabeth | 11 Jan 2018 6:30 p.m. PST |
If shipping to the US is 20 USD and shipping to Canada is 30 USD why does the american pay 0 and the Canadian pays 30? Shouldn't the canadian pay 10? I think that's the complaint Guthroth has. It is really laziness, because a lot of companies simply don't want to bother with international shipping so they make it costs so much to discourage people actually buying it. Maybe the US Postal service just sucks? Other companies I bought from would automatically slap some high shipping cost to it, like 30 dollars, which they claimed was the cheapest option available. |
Parzival | 11 Jan 2018 7:55 p.m. PST |
Gutroth, I'm not insulting you. You have made statements that imply certain expectations on your part that simply aren't realistic. You can order the product, you can pay the same price for it, so your complaint is about the shipping cost. Why should you not pay the shipping cost to the UK for a product you want? Why even should you get a discount on that cost? Because someone in the US gets a minimal discount on shipping cost in a circumstance which is much different? What's that got to do with it? |
Akalabeth | 11 Jan 2018 9:38 p.m. PST |
Parzival says: "It's unrealistic to expect paying customers to be treated equally" |
Parzival | 11 Jan 2018 10:40 p.m. PST |
Parzival says: "It's unrealistic to expect paying customers to be treated equally" Actually, it is unrealistic, if the circumstances of supplying the customer are different. Triplanetary will cost $45. USD The profit from the production of a single game is probably about 75-80% above cost, making the game production cost about $9 USD (Let's call t $10 USD for simplicity of math). That makes the profit $35. USD The game is a licensed property, so about 10-15% of that is going to Marc Miller in royalties. So SJG makes $29.75 USD-$32.50 for the game; call it $30. USD If we go with Akalebeth's suggestion that shipping cost for the game is as high as $20 USD in the US (it's not), that means that, if they comp shipping to US customers, they make about $10 USD per game, assuming that no other costs are involved. But shipping to the UK will probably run around $40 USD per game, not counting packaging, warehousing, bundling, etc.. Which means that to ship to the UK and comp the shipping, SJG would lose $10 USD per game shipped to the UK. If the UK buyer pays the US shipping cost of $10 USD (the difference Akalabeth suggests), SJG makes $0 USD per game shipped to the UK. Those lazy bums at SJG! They should be happy to break even per game! Let's say the UK buyer pays $20 USD shipping and the US buyer pays $10. USD The US profit is now $20 USD, but the UK profit only hits $10. USD But here's the deal: when planning a profit margin and retail cost, the cost is based on maximizing the profit so that *all* sales are essentially equal in profit, with only minimal differences to be made up by volume. In other words, it makes no sense for SJG to do anything other than get as close to the $30 USD profit they expect on the game for every sale. If they want to do that, then they *have* to charge the cost to ship to the UK to UK buyers; otherwise, the profit hit is too great. The same goes for any other international shipping cost. There is an amount of reduction they can work with, but it's probable (and smart business) that such reduction is already considered in the shipping cost presented to the consumer in the first place, meaning that the margin for reduction, which Akalabeth assumes is so great, may not even exist at all. In all of the above, we haven't even considered the advantages of selling to a large number of buyers in the US verses a minimal number of buyers in the UK. Keep in mind, it's a niche game for a niche market of nostalgic space combat gamers, of which very few non-US members will even have heard of the game. It ain't Munchkin. In short, SJG isn't being "lazy" (talk about insulting people), they're being profitable, which businesses are supposed to be (assuming they want to remain in business). And they're being profitable while offering a nostalgia game to a very limited market… and of course, that assumes that SJG actually IS making a profit on the game, and not just putting it out at cost because Steve Jackson is a personal fan of the game and wants to have it in print again "for old time's sake." Heck, he's already planning to republish The Fantasy Trip and its offspring, and that's certainly not going to make any sort of dent in the D&D 5e/Pathfinder marketplace. But he loves those games, and just wants to have them out there again. So I would not be at all surprised to learn that his company will actually make a minimal profit on Triplanetary, no matter who they sell it to. Which makes the shipping cost problem even more restrictive. Again, I'm not insulting anyone, nor putting words in their mouths. I am suggesting that people haven't really considered the actual economics of the situation, and are assuming circumstances to be identical which are not identical at all. |
deldietch | 11 Jan 2018 11:17 p.m. PST |
For those that don't know, shipping to Europe does suck. Its so expensive, that the real world costs of shipping to Europe are actually hurting my busines to overseas customers. For example… anything you ship across the Atlantic (wargaming) that fits in anything thicker than 1/8 inch envelope starts at $13. USD For example, a product my company sells are 28mm rifles. Five rifles for $4. USD I can fit those rifles in a CD media mailer envelope for $.90 USD shipping. Now, if the same customer orders five vickers machine guns for $4 USD, the ammo bin on the gun forces me to use a padded envelope or small box. Shipping for that similar item, with the same weight is $14 USD to the UK and Europe. That is the cheapest rate. That means a $12 USD jeep kit that is $3.95 USD to ship in the US is $14 USD to $22 USD to ship to Europe. There is no way I can eat that cost. |
Akalabeth | 12 Jan 2018 12:19 a.m. PST |
Oh my goodness what a lot of text to say virtually nothing Fed Ex Small Box Flat Rate: To the US – 7.15 To Canada – 24.95 To Europe – 33.95 So US is free? So those buyers get 7.15 off? To Canada – 24.95 – 7.15 = 17.8 To Europe – 33.95 – 7.15 = 26.8 It's not rocket science. Giving a full discount to domestic buyers and zero discount to international is just nickle and diming the latter. And yes, it is just laziness. |
Guthroth | 12 Jan 2018 2:19 a.m. PST |
I have and will pay for transatlantic shipping on Kickstarters, but I won't deal with companies that are Lazy and practice Isolationist Discrimination. You can say what you like, but it's my money and because of this policy SJG will never see any of it. |
Parzival | 12 Jan 2018 9:35 a.m. PST |
SJG wasn't ever expecting to see your money anyway, so I'm sure they're all torn up about that. You've certainly shown them! Really, this is all whining over price. Like complaining that it's too expensive to ship a Mustang GT to England, and therefore Ford is lazy for not comping the delivery. Hey, they'll comp it to Chicago! If you really want the game, pay what it's worth to obtain it. If it's not worth that price to you, admit that you really don't want the game, and that's not the seller's fault. There are plenty of products I don't or won't buy because the total cost to obtain these is too high for me or for the value I place upon the product. But that's not really the seller's fault, it's just my decision. I see no point in disparaging the seller for what is really a recognition on my part of the limits of my budget and my actual desire for a product. To do so would be the definition of "sour grapes." So in truth, your budgets don't allow you to obtain the game at the cost to supply you with it. That's the truth. And it's not anyone's fault, it's just basic economics. |
Guthroth | 12 Jan 2018 9:42 a.m. PST |
How many times do I have to say this. I don't care about the postage it's the business model I find unacceptable. |
Parzival | 12 Jan 2018 12:33 p.m. PST |
What business model? Charging what a product costs, with a nice profit built in? Knowing their market? You think you're not being treated the same as other customers, but you are. You're just not considering the additional costs involved which you don't see and don't know are there, because selling into another country, even across a border, is *not* economically identical to selling in one's own country, due to a whole host of reasons, among them differing laws, customs laws, taxes, etc., etc.. One of the biggest is in fact shipping costs. SJG and most US companies with significant US markets have negotiated or arranged for significant shipping discounts to US customers based on volume, which means their cost to actually ship a large number of products at one time (a significant factor) within the US allows them to be well below Akalebeth's posted postal rates. SJG won't get those discounts when shipping to a handful of purchasers internationally because the volume won't be there. So the shipping in the US might only be $1 USD to $2 USD with their bulk deal, since all the orders will be fulfilled in one big whack. (Heck, they may initially go out on trucks carrying orders of Munchkin going to retailers, being split up at the destination cities). That's no loss to comp. But an individual order going internationally? That will be a full shipping cost, or at best a minimal discount, already accounted for when ordered in the offered shipping price. So the international customers ARE being treated no differently than US customers; you just don't realize it because you don't understand what's going on. So instead of ranting nonsense about "isolationism" and "discrimination" when those terms clearly don't apply, and are frankly insulting to use, not only towards SJG but towards issues and individuals affected by real isolationism and real discrimination, perhaps you might take the time to examine the actual situation and understand how business and economics worse. In short, you're not being cheated, mistreated, or shut out. You just don't understand the situation, and haven't considered it logically. If you want the game, place the order, pay the shipping, and understand that, yes, you are getting a fair and reasonable deal. In fact it's no different than if you ordered a game from a shop in another city and they charged you postage, while they don't charge the same for the local customer who walks in the store or gets delivery in the same town as the store. There is no "different treatment" of the customer, though there is different treatment of the circumstances of the order, because there has to be. |
Akalabeth | 12 Jan 2018 4:36 p.m. PST |
You just don't understand the situation, and haven't considered it logically. Logically, if hundreds of kickstarters offer international shipping and SJG's kickstarter does not, the problem is SJG not the shipping. Unsubstantiated claims about huge domestic discounts and minimal international discounts don't mean much without the links to back it up. Here's another kickstarter for a space combat game, Sky Relics: link Shipping Costs 10 United States 18 International This small company with far less volume can provide it at this price, but apparently a much larger company like SJG cannot? Okay. Makes sense. |
Parzival | 12 Jan 2018 7:53 p.m. PST |
But can they make a profit? There's some nice artwork on the KS, but from all appearances this is the company's first ever product. They've got no record of prior sales that I can see. They have a dream, and they've put effort into it, but have they done the business planning to pull it all off? At a KS value of $5,000 USD at a $40 USD minimum, they're expecting to be able to produce a grand total of 120 sets. Okay, maybe as a proof of concept, but that hardly strikes me as a viable business model. Either they've already sunk a ton of cash into the product from other sources, and the KS is a marketing maneuver, or they're hoping to way oversell their stated initial goal. Hey, maybe they're brilliant and are on their way to being the US version of GW. But there's nothing there to really show me that they've thought the business model through as a profitable enterprise, or that they can actually deliver the goods. Maybe they can, but how can we know? SJG, on the other hand, has been in business for over thirty years. They know their costs, they know their market, and they know how to turn a profit at what they do. They priced a paper-and-cardboard game at a $20,000 USD investment to go forward, at a minimum production amount of 444 games (which is pretty damn niche, but not as niche as the SkyRelics guys are doing). I don't know if that's break even or not, but given licensing, development, production, packaging, legal and other costs, I'm thinking it's got a bit of profit, but nothing to throw a party over. Probably just enough to say, "Hey, we actually made money resurrecting this dinosaur!" And there it ends. So your assumption that the Sky Relics guys can actually deliver on their promises is based on no evidence at all. Whereas my assumption that SJG knows what they're doing and has priced their efforts fairly (and wisely) has thirty years of evidence to back it up. Best of luck to the Sky Relic guys; I'm really not trying to disparage them or their product. If they can pull it off, more power to 'em! Hope they are a huge success! As for SJG, I kinda hope that next they acquire the rights to The Creature That Ate Sheboygan. (Hint, hint!) |
Guthroth | 13 Jan 2018 5:07 a.m. PST |
Clearly Parzival is – for some reason – opposed to fair trade with, and treatment of all customers unless they live in a certain country or its 51st state. What a wonderful message to send to the wargaming world from the "Land Of The Free" …… |
ced1106 | 13 Jan 2018 1:32 p.m. PST |
> Logically, if hundreds of kickstarters offer international shipping and SJG's kickstarter does not, the problem is SJG not the shipping. Except this statement isn't true. SJG will offer the product through their Warehouse. As for "hundreds", the ones I've seen don't treat internationals equally, at least from the complaints internationals have made. Frex, Reaper increased its shipping costs for internationals, while still offering free shipping to domestics. I think Dwarven Forge did the same. Reaper, in fact, posted how much time internationals cost their shipping department because of paperwork for internationals, and a snafu from their carrier. Here's an article which sums up what I've seen with international KS. I've mostly seen the second situation. Reaper offered the last one for their first Bones KS and lost quite a bit of money from it, so went to the second -- and got plenty of complaints and refusals to back from internationals. * You can not offer international shipping, and get complaints about it; * You can offer it at a high but fairly honest cost and get complaints about it; * You can offer it at a cost that the international backers think is fair, but which pretty much eats up all the actual revenue value of their pledge, rendering their contribution effectively moot and potentially undermining your financial goals for the campaign. link |
Guthroth | 13 Jan 2018 1:46 p.m. PST |
Dear Lord, will the Fanboy nonsense never end ? OK, tell me this. If Firelock games – a small operation in Florida – can manage two massively successful KS with international shipping built in from day one, how come a company with 40 years experience can't ? Lazy and discriminatory, that's why. |
Akalabeth | 13 Jan 2018 3:37 p.m. PST |
Secondly, with regards to Parzival's comments about international shipping cutting into profits: #1 Kickstarter is meant to allow the creation of products that would otherwise not get made. So having "profits" as the main driver seems counter to what the platform is actually meant to do. Certainly anyone that wants to kickstart a game probably wants to go on to create more games, so those people need to get paid, but those people also want to build an audience. #2 Even if you accept Kickstarter can be just a "pre-order" system, then to claim that discounted international shipping will eat into profits is frankly a bad argument. Because if the game is selling at Kickstarter at full price then the company is already getting MORE profit per unit than it would had if that game had instead been sold to a distributor. A LOT more profit. Some companies using kickstarter have devised means to provide free shipping internationally to their backers: link This guide, like the one linked by another individual about are both four years old so how relevant either of them still are would need to be further investigated. |
Parzival | 13 Jan 2018 5:33 p.m. PST |
I'm a free trader. "Fair trade" is a euphemism for protectionist policies that invariably do nothing more than increase the cost to the consumer. I also believe that you should pay for what you want. (You will, anyway. TANSTAAFL.) Not a fanboy. I do like Ogre, think SJ himself seems like a stand up guy, and am glad to see Triplanetary being brought back to the market. But SJG is simply a company selling games, same as any other. I just don't believe in treating small companies ( SJG is no conglomerate, not that that really matters) as if they are Devils for a business decision, especially when the complaint comes down to an utterly petty gripe, and also especially when the complainers have made absolutely no effort to inform themselves as to the causes or situation behind the decision. Personally, I think such complaints are unfair, overblown and small-minded, if not just flatly ridiculous. But complain away. Or ask a US person to back the $70 USD two-copy edition and pay them to ship the extra copy to you, the $45 USD price plus their postage, if you think that will be cheaper. Best of luck! |
Akalabeth | 13 Jan 2018 8:37 p.m. PST |
Another thing worth noting, Kickstarter takes 30% of the cut. Triplanetary cost both 45 USD on the Kickstarter and the storefront which means that Steve Jackson Games is already making an additional 14 USD per game for internation pre-orders via their own webstore. |
kustenjaeger | 14 Jan 2018 9:55 a.m. PST |
The other thing to bear in mind is that if the product is not a book, impor into the UK may attract customs duty (and potentially VAT). The former may not be a huge amount but the UKP8 administrative charge is. Some KS manage this by having a shipment either to the UK or another EU country and distributed from there, which eliminates the charge on the pledger (though there will be a cost to the company). I think this was the route that SJG took with GURPS Dungeon Fantasy but I don't know how much this impacted their costs. Regards Edward |
emckinney | 14 Jan 2018 3:10 p.m. PST |
"OK, tell me this. If Firelock games – a small operation in Florida – can manage two massively successful KS with international shipping built in from day one, how come a company with 40 years experience can't ?" Fulfilment costs. Too get everything shipped in time, SJG is probably contracting to a fulfilment house. Because simply getting each international order ready takes so much more effort (manual intervention, paperwork), many fulfilment houses charge much more to handle a job with any number of international orders. Firelock, being so tiny and probably having a very small number of shipments compared to what SJG expects, certainly handled the entire fulfilment process themselves, and essentially every order was a one-off. That made it more reasonable for them to do international orders, although they probably mis-costed their labor in evaluating the real costs of international fulfilment. Just wait until you see what it's like to fulfill orders from the U.K. to Europe when the withdrawal is complete … |
Guthroth | 14 Jan 2018 11:56 p.m. PST |
Blood & Plunder tiny ? I give up. The level of fanboy delusion being posted here leaves me speechless. No more comments from me. |
Lysander | 15 Jan 2018 3:16 a.m. PST |
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Akalabeth | 15 Jan 2018 11:55 a.m. PST |
Fulfilment costs. Too get everything shipped in time, SJG is probably contracting to a fulfilment house. Because simply getting each international order ready takes so much more effort (manual intervention, paperwork), many fulfilment houses charge much more to handle a job with any number of international orders. Hogwash Cool Mini or Not has 12x the number of backers, and has 10 different international shipping costs and still does perfectly fine fulfilling orders abroad. Steve Jackson Games is just not up to par with other companies. Big OR small. |
Parzival | 15 Jan 2018 5:41 p.m. PST |
I cannot credit an argument that is based on emotion-loaded buzzwords ("isolationism" and "discrimination"), that serve only to escalate the initial complaint into the realm of absurdity by attaching political accusations which clearly do not apply. This has then been followed with insults ("fan boy" and "delusional"), but no actual logical refutation. Akalabeth has attempted to engage in logic, but I contend he is comparing apples and oranges, namely differing business models and companies that only appear to be similar as they produce games, while the natures of their markets and products also differ greatly. But even then, his argument falls down to his thought that SJG should accept less profit, or that he knows they actually could make more money offering discounts to international buyers, without actually establishing that they could. I might continue to point out that the likelihood that gamers outside the US have ever heard of Triplanetary, and much less have any nostalgia for it, or any desire to purchase a throwback '70s chit-and-paper wargame, is limited at best. I suspect that may well be the real cause that affects the profitability of shipping discounts overseas: there's no way to produce bulk shipping savings. But the truth is we really don't know SJG's fulfillment structure, but even if we did, and it turned out to be less than ideal, that doesn't mean that SJG is mistreating its potential international customers or treating them unfairly. So the flaw in the whole discussion, including my own, remains that as yet no one has bothered to discover what, if any, restrictions SJG is actually under, or how the entire thing affects their profit margin in reality instead of supposition. The leap to condemn them, in the light of this mutual ignorance, however, is far more egregious an error than the effort to defend them. In short, the charge against SJG goes completely unproven, and thus we can only presume that they are not, in fact, operating with any condemnable motive at all. Emotional charges and innuendo combined with broad speculation prove absolutely nothing. Conclusion: SJG is doing nothing wrong, but instead offering to revive a long dead game for former and future fans, while earning at least the cost and hopefully some respectable profit from the enterprise. Accusations to the contrary are absurd, and based on nothing but sour grapes at having to actually pay the attendant cost to receive a desired product. |
Akalabeth | 15 Jan 2018 6:08 p.m. PST |
Akalabeth has attempted to engage in logic, but I contend he is comparing apples and oranges, namely differing business models and companies that only appear to be similar as they produce games, while the natures of their markets and products also differ greatly No I engage in facts. And the fact is that Steve Jackson Games does not offer what other companies, both big and small, are offering on a regular and consistent basis. Contrary to your wholly-unsupported claims we also know that direct sales of this game produce 25 USD in pure profit since they are willing to sell this game to retailers at that discount. Their kickstarter is well below industry standards for international shipping and no fallacy-ridden argument can dispute that. I've also yet to see you produce a shred of actual evidence that says their practice is in keeping with any sort of industry standard. What other kickstarters by notable games companies only ship within the US? |
Lysander | 16 Jan 2018 3:09 a.m. PST |
I own the original game. Happy I do. Not buying the "new" one. If you don't want to buy it…..THEN DON'T BUY IT. |
Parzival | 16 Jan 2018 10:57 a.m. PST |
Okay, I give. SJG is obviously evil incarnate, and probably collude with Russians, too. |
Akalabeth | 16 Jan 2018 11:16 a.m. PST |
No, SJG could do better because almost every other company out there is doing better with regards to international shipping for Kickstarters. If you love a company or a game you should be able to recognise its failings and push it to improve. Fail to do so and you just help facilitate its inevitable fall into mediocrity and obscurity. |
Parzival | 16 Jan 2018 1:06 p.m. PST |
Perhaps they could "do better," but we don't actually know what restrictions and costs they are operating under, which is what I've been saying. You have been comparing what they do and sell to other companies, but you also don't know how the situations differ. You bring up the $25 USD discount to retail. Retail stores typically purchases at 40% of the retail cost to begin with (the rate varies), so that they can cover overhead, costs, etc. and make a profit on the sale, while having some room to offer discounts to customers. Publishers are going to be reluctant to do anything to undercut their retail outlets, so SJG's offer is probably exactly in line with that. However, this doesn't mean that SJG is making $20 USD or more per game sold in actual profits, because the profit is based on overall sales, not individual sales. The $45 USD cost for the game assumes a certain level of sales volume which we don't know, because there is a minimal amount of games that SJG must produce to have a print run at cost, with profit only arriving if this at cost level is exceeded, and only being realized if and when the additional games have actually been sold, and that assumes that they aren't stuck with additional games that don't sell, or are lost due to various errors, shipping problems, etc.. So some amount of the production level is a loss from the beginning, regardless of the retail price or discount to retailers, some amount is break even, and then above that is when profit per game actually begins to occur. We do not know what that amount is for Triplanetary, and to some extent SJG is taking an informed gamble as well. But even then, the Kickstarter for Triplanetary isn't equivalent to others you've mentioned, because SJG clearly doesn't expect this to be an ongoing product, whereas the game companies you cite are instead trying to build a long term profit base over multiple years, allowing them to amortize costs over time. SJG isn't doing that for these nostalgia games. Instead, they are doing limited "collector" production runs with limited total expected profits, and no further production or sales expected afterwards. That means that all costs and profit must be collected as "up front" as possible, and maximized in each sale. Thus, their Kickstarter campaign isn't actually comparable to those of other companies, and your suggestion that they are mishandling the situation falls apart. Apples to oranges, as I said. |
Akalabeth | 16 Jan 2018 1:16 p.m. PST |
Perhaps they could "do better," but we don't actually know what restrictions and costs they are operating under, which is what I've been saying. No self-respecting consumer makes excuses for a company's poor or noncompetitive customer service. From their Ogre Miniatures 2 set which immediately preceeds triplanetary. We had so few international orders last time that we are not offering international fulfillment as part of this Kickstarter. link Translation: They just can't be arsed. All of your conjectural special restrictions on SJG is 100% false and you would know this if you were actually interested in the truth of the matter and spent even 10 minutes researching. SJG doesn't have some special limitations, they just don't want to bother. So the only thing separating these kickstarters is companies that choose to bother (everyone else) and companies that do not (SJG) |
ced1106 | 16 Jan 2018 8:33 p.m. PST |
> All of your conjectural special restrictions on SJG is 100% false Goes for both sides, then. As others have said (and you haven't been listening to), the project is available or will be through their W23 warehouse (like many of their other projects during their KS campaign). It'll cost more, but then internationals pay more anyway in a KS through shipping. Why do you need to spend your money through KS vs. W23? SJG will actually receive more money through W23 than KS -- no fees. Do you really need to be the same special snowflake the domestic backers are? Speaking of which, internationals need to support their own country's projects and products more. Without your own domestic hobby industry, you're going to continuously pay higher shipment fees, at least until you go 3D printer route. |
Parzival | 16 Jan 2018 9:08 p.m. PST |
We had so few international orders last time that we are not offering international fulfillment as part of this Kickstarter. Actually, that proves my point, not yours. The translation of the above is that international fulfillment was too expensive given the low rate of interest, so they're not providing it. They're not doing it because they're lazy, they're not doing it because they can't make their expected profit that way. Which is what I stated was the case in my last post AND echoes what I said in a post on the Ogre thread some time earlier. But you're stuck in this idea that it's all about poor customer service. What poor service? They will sell you the game. They will charge you shipping. Which is what they would do if the didn't do the Kickstarter at all, but just put the game on the market. So your real beef is that they will sell the game to me (and others) by raising money up front first, and for the opportunity to get this pre-order and thereby provide the cost to produce it, they will give me (and others) a discount on the shipping, which, in the case of US customers, is actually a minimal cost for them anyway. But for you, they will sell you the same game at the same price, but will charge you the cost to ship it to you, which is much higher than the cost to ship it to me. That's not an issue of service, it's an issue of what is profitable to them. Because what we have so far is that two people (and only two people) from outside the US have raised this beef, and I doubt either of you were going to buy the game anyway. Because if you were, you'd be saying, "Great! I never had the chance to get Triplanetary because it wasn't ever sold in Britain back in the '80s, but now I can actually order a copy!" But you're not. You're complaining about not getting free shipping. Which tells me you didn't want the game, you just wanted to complain. |
Lfseeney | 16 Jan 2018 10:39 p.m. PST |
Never cared for Steve, most of "his" good games were others work. When dealing with him know he is Never Wrong. |
Akalabeth | 17 Jan 2018 9:32 a.m. PST |
The translation of the above is that international fulfillment was too expensive given the low rate of interest, so they're not providing it. No this is not a translation, this is you adding meaning that isn't there. Previous SJG kickstarters charged different shipping rates to different countries. They did not absorb those shipping costs. Again, 10 minutes of research, which you are not willing to do because you're not interested in the truth of the matter. Never cared for Steve, most of "his" good games were others work. When dealing with him know he is Never Wrong. Sounds like another old designer of a starship combat game. |
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