UshCha | 05 Jan 2018 10:12 a.m. PST |
We have never gone into this level of detail in our rules but it would be interesting to know how often units were actually supplied with the two types of grenade. As I understand it the defensive grenade can only be used if the thrower is in a fighting position due to the increased explosive capacity. |
Raynman | 05 Jan 2018 8:47 p.m. PST |
All the grenades I used were the same. Being defensive or offensive depended on whether you were defending or attacking. Any difference would be the grenade is a smoke, pineapple type or baseball type. Mostly baseball type any more. |
bsrlee | 06 Jan 2018 1:04 a.m. PST |
By old definitions, an offensive grenade had a kill radius of 5 metres/yards while a defensive grenade had a radius of 25 metres/yards. Some examples – the German 'stick' grenade was an offensive grenade while the Mills or Pineapple grenade was an offensive grenade. Amusingly, the assumed maximum throw range of a Mills/Pineapple grenade was 25 yards. Most Allied offensive grenades had a cardboard or Bakelite body and were very similar in size and shape to smoke and WP grenades, so it would be very hard to tell from photos what the troops were actually carrying. |
Legion 4 | 06 Jan 2018 10:45 a.m. PST |
As already be posted most hand grenades were used as offensive or defensive weapons. Based on the situation, etc. E.g. a grenade could be made into booby traps/IEDs with a little modification/imagination. Obviously in most cases a hand grenade is thrown into an emplacement, trench, structure, etc. The key thing about using a grenade is Not to be in the burst/blast radius. Or at least be behind solid cover. Like after throwing it into a solid building, etc. Not a tent or maybe even a bamboo hut, etc. The only grenade I know of that is generally hard to throw very far and escape the burst radius is the Thermite type. Which is a bit heavier than most. It would primarily be used to "spike" an FA piece. By placing it in the breach, etc., after pulling the pin. Followed by running to cover. The Thermite burns very hot and can melt steel, burn thru an engine block, etc. But again with a little imagination it could be very useful in many situations. |
Wolfhag | 06 Jan 2018 1:25 p.m. PST |
Legion, IIRC thermite grenades do not have a burst radius, were you thinking of WP? One time I was in a trench with an M60 and about 10 yards away from a WP grenade that went off. It was a loud "pop" and I looked to my left and saw the initial smoke and WP particles spreading out into the air. I quickly broke off the belted ammo and jumped out of the trench. Fortunately, I was at the edge and didn't get hit. It was curious to hear the particles coming down around you making a hissing and burning sound. I think defensive grenades are somewhat like a flashbang and should stun or suppress the defender to give an initiative advantage to the attacker. I'm assuming it can be thrown and then advance without worrying about the shrapnel. German stick grenades did have a shrapnel sleeve you could slip over it to make if defensive. There was a Marine named Jack Lucas who was on Iwo Jima when two grenades landed in his hole. He jumped on both of them and shoved them into the soft volcanic soil. One was a frag/defensive and the other an offensive/flashbang. Fortunately, the frag was a dud and he survived the flashbang to be awarded the MOH. He was 17 years old at the time. Wolfhag |
Legion 4 | 06 Jan 2018 5:25 p.m. PST |
You may be correct Wolf … Regardless I wouldn't want to be near neither when detonated … |
UshCha | 07 Jan 2018 4:28 a.m. PST |
Interesting, I did a bit of reading on this topic and its not clear when and where the offensive/defensive greanades were deploted. The above anecdote shows the distinction was not rigid anyway, both blast and frag thwown simultaniously. One ex-service man said that they were taught to "post" genades into defences, not throw them becuse of impact on themselves on an assult if they went off in the open. This has sort of ruined my boyhood vision of troops running the last 20 yards heaving grenades randomly at the enemy trenches :0 , but does confirm that they are best loaded in with the close assult rules as an abstraction. |
Legion 4 | 07 Jan 2018 7:58 a.m. PST |
Like many things in certain situations you do what works … |
Bellbottom | 08 Jan 2018 4:37 a.m. PST |
Lethality range increases dramatically on hard, flat ground such as tarmac or concrete, |
Lion in the Stars | 08 Jan 2018 6:57 a.m. PST |
I don't think the US has ever used differentiated grenades, I think they've always been "defensive" grenades that couldn't be thrown farther than their blast/fragmentation radius. The German "potato-mashers" could be thrown farther than their blast radius, and had a separate fragmentation sleeve that could be added. The Japanese grenades were simultaneously brilliant and disappointing. They were brilliant because the same grenade could be thrown by hand, launched off a rifle, or even from a baby mortar. They were disappointing because they had a too-small explosive mass of 65g in a 530g grenade. (For what it's worth, the US about tripled the explosive mass in their post-war grenades: The classic WW2 Mk2 'pineapple grenade' had ~52-66g of explosive in a 600g grenade, the Korea-vintage M26 'lemon grenade' had 165g of explosive in a 454g grenade, and the current issue M67 'baseball grenade' has 180g of explosive in a 400g grenade.) |
Wolfhag | 08 Jan 2018 3:16 p.m. PST |
US Mk3A2 Offensive Grenade The Mk3A2 offensive hand grenade, or concussion grenade, produces casualties during close combat while minimizing danger to friendly personnel. The grenade is also used for concussion effects in enclosed areas, for blasting, and for demolition tasks. The shock waves (overpressure) produced by this grenade when used in enclosed areas are greater than those produced by the fragmentation grenade. It is, therefore, more effective against enemy soldiers located in bunkers, buildings, and fortified areas. Initiated by the M206A2 Fuze, it has an effective casualty radius of 2 meters in open areas, but fragments and bits of fuse may be projected as far as 200 meters from the detonation point. Wolfhag |
Legion 4 | 08 Jan 2018 4:27 p.m. PST |
Yes, that certainly is true … grenades are really useful in Close Combat. But you just have to know when and where to use them. I know even in training one trooper got hit in his boot by a piece of shrapnel when he didn't pull his foot back far enough behind cover after throwing his grenade, IIRC, it was a M68 ? But as I said, most grenades can be made into IEDs with a little training and imagination. As we learned in South East Asia, and in turn learned some lessons and how to use and improve on the "Booby Trap" … |
Lion in the Stars | 08 Jan 2018 5:49 p.m. PST |
I stand corrected! US Navy uses concussion grenades for dealing with divers. |
Legion 4 | 09 Jan 2018 8:48 a.m. PST |
That makes sense, didn't know that. |