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MiniatureReview26 Dec 2017 5:19 a.m. PST

Is it me or was Luke Skywalker's role in Star Wars a total disappointment.

When you play Star Wars Destiny the card game, Luke is very powerful, yet in the movies he is so lame.

No epic light saber battle, only a powerful Jedi Mind trick. In the end he just fades away.

The writing IMO was pathetic and just like when they killed Han Solo, it turned into a total disappointment.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2017 5:47 a.m. PST

Master Yoda did not use the word, but Luke was guilty of hubris, every step of the way. Luke thought he was totally responsible for Ben, and fled to avoid more responsibility. It took the little green guy doing the patented John Wayne slap of his co-pilot "Snap out of it and do something!" to bring him around.

By the way, this more than anything reinforces my belief that Star Wars has little to do with Science and is total fantasy. Luke and Leia may as well be angels or Demi-gods the way they fly around and appear.

Harrison Ford was absolutely correct. Han should have died in ESB. And for dramatic reasons, Luke has to die for Ren to become what she's meant to be. Bran and the Three Eyed Raven are a close parallel.

By the way, it cracked me up the way Snoke bought the farm. What an unworthy punk ass death.

Garand26 Dec 2017 6:17 a.m. PST

There was a lot of subversion of common storyteller tropes, and especially of ones used in the original trilogy. Snoke's death, as well as Rose preventing Finn from sacrificing himself heroically, were part of that…

But personally I loved every minute of Snoke's scenery chewing during the throne room scene. Over the top that hearkens back to Papa Palps in Jedi. Also the lightsaber battle after was a lot of fun.

Also Star Wars was never SCIENCE fiction, but has more to do with Pulp Science Fantasy.

Damon.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2017 7:12 a.m. PST

Lucas used to brag about how he read Joseph Campbell, and then proceeded to show that he just skimmed the Cliff's Notes before an exam.

28mm Fanatik26 Dec 2017 7:53 a.m. PST

I have absolutely no issues with the way Luke was portrayed in TLJ. The young Jedi we last saw in ROTJ, filled with so much hope and optimism, has been reduced to a cynical, disillusioned old man after what happened with Ben Solo. It's totally understandable that Luke would decide to give up and live as a recluse. He just wanted to be left alone.

Rian Johnson humbled Luke and made him "human" in his twilight years. The time has come for Rey to take over the mantle.

This is also nothing new. The "old man being reluctantly called out of retirement to perform one final heroic deed" is a well-worn Hollywood trope.

Snoke's exit was classic. I must be the only one who wasn't fooled because I said to my friend next to me: "Just watch, Kylo Ren is going to kill Snoke instead" right before it happened.

SBminisguy26 Dec 2017 9:04 a.m. PST

I have absolutely no issues with the way Luke was portrayed in TLJ. The young Jedi we last saw in ROTJ, filled with so much hope and optimism, has been reduced to a cynical, disillusioned old man after what happened with Ben Solo. It's totally understandable that Luke would decide to give up and live as a recluse. He just wanted to be left alone.

Which process would have made a *better movie*, eh?

Garand26 Dec 2017 9:49 a.m. PST

Snoke's exit was classic. I must be the only one who wasn't fooled because I said to my friend next to me: "Just watch, Kylo Ren is going to kill Snoke instead" right before it happened.

I think there was a lot of telegraphing in the lead up to that moment, so it wasn't a complete surprise… :)

Damon.

28mm Fanatik26 Dec 2017 10:22 a.m. PST

Not to mention Snoke treated Ren like manure and the fact that Ren likes Rey in spite of (or maybe it's precisely because of) her humble beginnings.

When Snoke met his (un)timely demise, the audience in the theater I was in broke into cheers and applause.

Personal logo Tommy20 Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2017 10:45 a.m. PST

I didn't have a problem with Luke's exit in the context of the movie itself, however, with the loss of Carrie Fisher, would have preferred his sacrifice occur in the next film. Hindsight is 20/20, and it probably wasn't possible after her death, but it would have been better to have Leia perform Holdo's final act.

McKinstry Fezian26 Dec 2017 12:35 p.m. PST

I liked the movie and really like the way Snoke got wacked. For me, each movie is essentially a stand alone and as such, this was fine.

Personal logo mrwigglesworth Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2017 12:39 p.m. PST

Kylo said many times. " Let the past die bury it. I believe that was the director saying too the audience the Skywalker story is over and on with the new characters.

Personal logo mrwigglesworth Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2017 12:43 p.m. PST

I have said many times that Luke should have been like Gandolf with a lightsaber. Also Rey handing Luke the lightsaber was a powerful scene and turned into a joke in this movie. I think the director just blew it badly. Poor choice for the director. That said I did like the movie.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2017 1:22 p.m. PST

Ok, I finally got out of the house and went to see Star Wars.

Not bad, for a Star Wars film.

To me Luke has always been a disappointment, so I wasn't expecting much from him to begin with. And the fact that the previous movie did not end with him taking the light saber from Rey told me he might not do so.

As for Admiral "Miss Gen'Darr Issus", I saw her (and Leiah's) condescending comments at the end of the film to be less of a gender thing and more of an age thing, as in treating him like a little boy. Like a little version of Han Solo, except that this guy is a grown up, fully aware of the consequences of his actions, and was in uniform and carrying out a mutiny.

And yet they still liked him somehow … which is nuts, if you ask me. Even my own wife said that "they (Dern and Fisher) made grown women look impulsive and emotional, not rational, and not capable of commanding or disciplining with proper objectivity". My wife has had dozens of employees working for her over the years men and women and she was not impressed with the performance of those two characters.

Dan

repaint26 Dec 2017 1:30 p.m. PST

It was one of the best movie of the saga. The humour was cheerful and the light saber scene was hilarious. I really liked how Snoke is replaced by Kylo Ren with the quick fight trick.

I think that contrary to what people say, the rebellious spirit of Starwars was there as well as the massive fleet battles. You just have to understand it in the context of 2017 and it was time for an update that is more in line with what people expect now. All in all, it was a bold move that proved a winner.

As for the Leia scene, at first I was surprised, but it makes sense if you think about it. She is also the daughter of Anakin and the force runs especially strong in the family. It was long overdue that she could demonstrate that she is clearly also a powerful master of the Force.

I would have liked also to know a bit more about the secret Jedi writings and their impact on the Jedi order and general influence but since most of the historical characters die, it quite made sense for them to be destroyed as well so we can focus more on the new characters.

All in all a pretty good movie. I know people cheered in the theater and there were great laughs (everybody was floored when chewbaka brought welcome comic relief the chicken scene was enormous!!!!).

Again, it was to be taken as an entire new concept movie with some ground breaking directions. People should not hang so much on the past, they could enjoy so much more the future direction the all saga is taking.

I am looking forward to the next release! This one was so good. Even better than the Phantom Menace.

JSchutt26 Dec 2017 2:04 p.m. PST

This movie was as much about "Star Wars" as Moby Dick was about a whale.

Axebreaker26 Dec 2017 2:09 p.m. PST

My opinion is I hated it and it should have been called Spaceballs II, because Mel Brooks couldn't have made more jokes in a SW film.

Needless destruction of the old SW to bring in the new. I loved seeing old familiar faces, but since they decided they were going to disgrace the old SW generation I would have preferred they made a whole new story set a hundred years into the future rather then bringing out the old beloved heroes and proceed to publicly humiliate and kill them off. Golf clap to Kennedy and crew for their destruction of a SW generation.

If they would have spent more time working on character development in the new cast and story lines instead of destroying the old SW (and I don't just mean the heroes, but the ideals as well) they may have had a chance to make something worth seeing. That aside the story had so many plot holes and bad jokes one can only shake your head.

As things stand we have:

Rey- The ultimate Mary Sue who can do everything without any training or effort. She has succeeded at everything she has tried to included fixing ships, flying whatever she get's in, beating whoever she fights,and using the force like a jedi master. Where is the character development to make us care about her? Where are the failures to make us cheer for her success?

Finn- An ex-storm trooper who is reluctant to kill that goes on a killing frenzy in Snokes ship. A non pilot in TFA and pilot in TLJ without training. Other then that who is he?

Poe- Hot shot pilot who nobody trusts in spite of destroying the Death star and and Imperial Dreadnought. Maybe now? What does he feel and who is he…

Kylo- The worst Dark apprentice ever. Let me see couldn't even beat Rey in spite of being trained by Jedi Master Luke and Lord Snoke, plus building his own lightsaber to boot. He throws tantrums like a third grade kid which all together gives him a zero intimidation factor thanks to all that.

At this point I'm thinking how does Kylobeiber and the bumbling circus called the first Order have a chance against Rey. Does anyone seriously think Kylo has a chance based on what we have seen?

Why should I care what happens in episode 9 since they went out of their way for me not to. What's to care about.

Christopher

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2017 2:18 p.m. PST

Christopher: "Why should I care what happens in episode 9"

What?!?! Wait a second. I thought THIS ONE was episode 9.

Oh man, they sure fooled me with that Last Jedi title and the way they ended everything.

Dan

28mm Fanatik26 Dec 2017 2:29 p.m. PST

As for Admiral "Miss Gen'Darr Issus", I saw her (and Leiah's) condescending comments at the end of the film to be less of a gender thing and more of an age thing, as in treating him like a little boy. Like a little version of Han Solo, except that this guy is a grown up, fully aware of the consequences of his actions, and was in uniform and carrying out a mutiny.

You're right. It isn't a gender thing despite what some would have us believe. Poe was a hot-shot maverick who needed to be smacked down for his cowboy impulsiveness. If General Leia and Vice Admiral Holdo were male they would do exactly the same thing.

And yet they still liked him somehow … which is nuts, if you ask me. Even my own wife said that "they (Dern and Fisher) made grown women look impulsive and emotional, not rational, and not capable of commanding or disciplining with proper objectivity".

Good pilots who can "single-handedly" take down a TIE squadron or FO Dreadnought (even if it cost a lot of Resistance bombers they can ill afford) are hard to come by. Poe gets reprimanded/disciplined and learned his lesson. That's good enough.

link

Axebreaker26 Dec 2017 2:32 p.m. PST

@Dan

Not sure what you are saying, but I'm sure it's sarcastic or at least sounds that way. Good for you if you liked it or not or kinda which is completely your privilege as is mine. Opinions were asked and I gave mine.

In quite a few reviews the critics are raving, but the fan base is not with roughly half disliking it. For example Rotten Tomatoes is something like 92% from critics and 52% from the Audience which seems to be common among others. This isn't very good for a SW film to be receiving a 52% which means a whole lot of people seem to feel as I do. As for the critics I take them with a huge grain of salt as they after all first said Empire Strikes back wasn't good, but the fans said otherwise as an example. You are of course free to differ.

Christopher

28mm Fanatik26 Dec 2017 2:49 p.m. PST

As things stand we have:

Rey- The ultimate Mary Sue who can do everything without any training or effort. She has succeeded at everything she has tried to included fixing ships, flying whatever she get's in, beating whoever she fights,and using the force like a jedi master. Where is the character development to make us care about her? Where are the failures to make us cheer for her success?

Finn- An ex-storm trooper who is reluctant to kill that goes on a killing frenzy in Snokes ship. A non pilot in TFA and pilot in TLJ without training. Other then that who is he?

Poe- Hot shot pilot who nobody trusts in spite of destroying the Death star and and Imperial Dreadnought. Maybe now? What does he feel and who is he…

Kylo- The worst Dark apprentice ever. Let me see couldn't even beat Rey in spite of being trained by Jedi Master Luke and Lord Snoke, plus building his own lightsaber to boot. He throws tantrums like a third grade kid which all together gives him a zero intimidation factor thanks to all that.

Rey Rey (or "Mary Sue" as you derisively calls her) isn't Wonder Woman who just magically can do anything. She's a hardened survivor whose resourcefulness sprang from living on the harsh and unforgiving climes of Jakku. She may be raw but the Force is strong in her, and she makes up for her inexperience with her drive and determination.

Finn Finn isn't the same as the one in TFA. There is plenty of time while he's onboard the resistance ship to learn to fly, hone his killer instinct among other things. What do you think he's doing on the resistance ship with his time, picking his nose? It shouldn't be that hard to use a bit of imagination and "fill in the blanks."

Poe Trust has nothing to do with skill. It was his impetuousness that got him into trouble. See the article I linked to in my previous post.

Kylo Like Rey, Kylo is still a "work in progress" who hasn't yet realized his full potential. His missteps vs. Rey (and Finn in TFA) in light-saber dueling were not so much due to his lack of skill but because he was hot-headed and tend to be driven by spur-of-the-moment emotions (hence some say he's "emo"). That is his weakness.

At this point I'm thinking how does Kylobeiber and the bumbling circus called the first Order have a chance against Rey. Does anyone seriously think Kylo has a chance based on what we have seen?

Maybe, maybe not. I guess we'll find out in Episode IX. Whether or not you care for this new 'Star Wars: The Next Generation' I really don't care.

McKinstry Fezian26 Dec 2017 3:05 p.m. PST

As long as the film banks between $1.5 USD-2 Billion the Disney factory will not care who likes what and why. As long as the money continues to flow, films in the SW Universe will continue, likely beyond our lifetimes.

Axebreaker26 Dec 2017 3:34 p.m. PST

Rey Rey (or "Mary Sue" as you derisively calls her) isn't Wonder Woman. She's a hardened survivor whose resourcefulness sprang from living in the unforgiving junk planet of Jakku. She's raw but the Force is strong in her, and her drive and determination to succeed had much to do with her "success" so far.

It fits the definition perfectly. Hardened survivor or not this does not explain her ability to fix and fly large ships when only exposed to small ones. I would say the Force was Strong in Luke and Vader wouldn't you, but they still had to train to use it. The force is like any other talent as shown in all previous episodes 1-6, but you need to train in it to use it properly. So far I've seen no training in levitation of objects, mind reading or the lightsaber yet she was able to flawlessly use them all. It beggars belief. Where are her ups and downs so we can watch her progress and grow some form of attachment and a feeling of wanting to cheer her on to overcome her difficulties. There is non of that as she simply never fails.

Finn Finn isn't the same as the one in TFA. There is ample time between episodes VII and VIII for him to learn to fly and hone his killer instinct. It shouldn't be hard to "fill in the blanks."

Huh? We was lying in medical the whole time. When did he have the chance. This again was never shown and in the first series they made it a point of interest he could not fly so one would think they would have at least shown him learning the ropes.

Poe Trust has nothing to do with skill. It was his impulsiveness and impetuousness that got him in trouble. See the article I linked to in my previous post.

I was never discussing his skill, but rather his dedication to the cause. Knowing his impetuousness his commanders refused to clue him in on the mission for no good reason. They know what the general plan is and no doubt Poe was high enough up to given that at the very least avoiding the confusion latter.

Kylo Like Rey, Kylo is still a "work in progress" who hasn't yet realized his full potential. His missteps vs. Rey (and Finn in TFA) in light-saber dueling were not so much due to his lack of skill but because he was hot-headed and tend to be driven by emotions. That is his weakness.

Yes that's very evident and an awful trait to give the supposed lead antagonist to Rey. He looks incredibility weak which is the opposite of what he should be. Yes difficulty with emotions is fine, but so much that it turns him into a fool is not. Going into the last episode one should feel Rey is up against it, but instead through bad design it looks like a cake walk. When Rey wins it will feel entirely unearned and anti climatic as she was better then he was from the start. He should have thumped her in TFA and it would have changed the whole dynamic between them as we would be excited or at the very least interested to see how Rey will overcome him. As it's stands I'm curious how they will pump Kylo up to give some kind of epic ending, because it sure looks rough for him now.

Maybe, maybe not. I guess we'll find out in Episode IX. Whether or not you care for this new 'Star Wars: The Next Generation' I really don't care.

Apparently you care somewhat because you took the time to respond to what I said. The poster did not ask for only positive opinions of the film, but in opinions in general. I could say I don't care about your opinion, but truth is I can handle if yours is not the same as mine and so I am interested it what others have to say including yourself as a point of discussion without getting personal.

If you enjoy the new SW then great, but I do not and both opinions should be encouraged.

Christopher

Goober26 Dec 2017 5:13 p.m. PST

Kylo is immature – as some other posters have commented – but he also has incredibly strong force powers – the ability to stop a blaster bolt in mid air, for instance. Hux may be more military minded and scornful of him, but he's also got to bear in mind that Kylo could crush him like a grape. He's like a toddler with a grenade launcher. Can we think of any other irrational leaders with huge power who seemed to have it all before making a dumb decision that everybody else could see was dumb? He's no Vader, he's no Palpatine and he's no Snoke, which in some ways makes him much worse.

Bandolier Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2017 5:21 p.m. PST

At least they realised the helmet wasn't working and was quickly destroyed in another one of Kylo's tantys.
It was a good, entertaining family movie.

Personal logo gamertom Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2017 6:02 p.m. PST

I would have liked also to know a bit more about the secret Jedi writings and their impact on the Jedi order and general influence but since most of the historical characters die, it quite made sense for them to be destroyed as well so we can focus more on the new characters.

Missed the scene with the drawer being slid out of a console inside the MF showing the ancient texts, did we now? Quick it was.

TGerritsen Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2017 8:27 p.m. PST

"You just have to understand it in the context of 2017"

I went into great detail why I hated this outing in one of the older threads on this forum. However, this statement is one of the main reasons why I hated it.

You didn't have to understand Star Wars in the context of 1977 to enjoy it. If you have to understand an escapist fantasy epic in the context of current events, then you've already failed. You are basically saying that it's dated already, since as people and times change, the understanding of it based on 2017 will not carry along with it.

This movie has really divided fans- that's clear. 2nd week receipts were down a whopping amount and the movie is on track to make much less than Episode VII. What that means to the long term health of the franchise is anyone's guess.

I fell in love with the movie back in 1977 and even sat through the godawful Chrismas special live back in the day without losing an ounce of enthusiasm for the franchise. I loved ESB, loved parts of ROTJ while overlooking others. I played the D6, D20 and even Saga versions of the Star Wars RPG. I've watched Clone Wars, Rebels, and played practically every board game, card game and video game based on Star Wars. It was a huge part of my life.

Even the admittedly awful prequels didn't kill my love for the franchise, and I enjoyed but didn't love Episode VII but viewed it as putting the franchise back on a proper trajectory. I really enjoyed Rogue One, but The Last Jedi finally killed my love of Star Wars.

The suspension of disbelief was too much, and the deconstructionist sentiment may have been a bold move and you can argue until you are blue in the face how 'brilliant' it may be, but the execution was bad, the characters wasted, and every bit of anticipation built up in Episode VII was put in a dumpster, gasoline poured over it and burned to the ground in Episode VIII. It was board room mandated, audience tested least objectional cynically generated (but very lovely) gruel from start to finish.

If you loved it, great for you, but for me, Star Wars died on December 15th. R.I.P.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2017 9:47 p.m. PST

2017 has nothing to do with it.
Luke failed Ben Solo. He tried to kill him and failed. His failure shattered him.
It fractured all my preconceived notions of how it would turn out, and I'm good with that.
I hope I'm just as good with Game of Thrones not going the way I want it to.

Axebreaker27 Dec 2017 2:39 a.m. PST

2017 has nothing to do with it.
Luke failed Ben Solo. He tried to kill him and failed. His failure shattered him.
It fractured all my preconceived notions of how it would turn out, and I'm good with that.
I hope I'm just as good with Game of Thrones not going the way I want it to.

I disagree Luke did not attempt to kill Ben, but rather considered killing Ben which is quite different. He did not strike a blow, but only activated his lightsaber and seeing Ben awake tried to tell him to wait, but Ben of course saw the lightsaber and responded.

Anyway however you view it Luke had to completely step out of character in order for that to happen and stay out of character for 30+years. Luke who just saw the smallest spark of good in his father was willing to do anything including sacrificing himself to turn him him back to the good side would suddenly even consider killing his best friends son and his nephew because he was having conflicts with the dark side is totally out of whack. Luke would never have given up on Ben and would have continued trying to turn him to the light even if it meant his own death.

If your willing to except what they did to Luke as being fine then that's your prerogative, but remember many of us do not for good reason.

Imho there is little doubt the new episodes and in particular TLJ has an agenda to the detriment of the SW legacy.

Christopher

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP27 Dec 2017 5:59 a.m. PST

Luke could not blame himself for Darth Vader turning bad. How could he? So he is not responsible for Vader.
And I disagree with you about Luke only thinking about killing Ben. He's standing over the kid with his light saber drawn! What is Ben to think when the Force wakes him? Ben defeats Luke, and Luke's attempted murder is what turns Ben. And Luke knows it. It destroys him. Luke, in his hubris, believes that he is responsible for whatever Ben does.
In the Aristotelian sense of tragedy, Luke is a great man who is brought down by a flaw in his character.

Mark Hammil dislikes this because of the simplistic view that Luke could never do anything wrong. The mere thought of thinking of attempting the evil deed of murdering Ben spirals out of control. Luke thought he could do one evil deed, for the sake of good. It destroys his view of himself.
Hammil is denying complexity.
Personally I think that Luke attempting to redeem the foul evil thing he had done is even better than Luke never straying.

I hope Ben Kylo Ren is never redeemed. Lucas would have us believe that Vader saving Luke from the Emperor somehow makes up for the billions of people he had murdered and anihilated. I find that disgusting, and it's one of the reasons I'm glad that control of the Star Wars story was wrenched from Lucas's hands.

Mister Tibbles27 Dec 2017 6:17 a.m. PST

It needed more Grand Admiral Thrawn. He would have kicked everyone's butt.

BTW with Last Jedi having the largest 2nd week drop of any movie in history and being rated so low by fans, Disney is assuming and bracing for the disaster of a film named "Solo" to bomb at the box office. We may be seeing the end of the Stand alone movies. This has been the big news this weekend.

Personal logo Sir Walter Rlyeh Supporting Member of TMP27 Dec 2017 7:58 a.m. PST

DELETED

Mike Target27 Dec 2017 8:10 a.m. PST

"Lucas would have us believe that Vader saving Luke from the Emperor somehow makes up for the billions of people he had murdered and anihilated"

He didnt just save Luke- He saved the Galaxy from the Emperor. well OK the Emperor was as good as dead anyway (Couldnt see any sign of an escape plan!) once the Rebels brought the shield down, but Vader and Luke had no way of knowing that at the time- as far as they were concerned at that moment the rebels were being rounded up and shot and Vader was all that stood between the Galaxy and an enourmous amount of unpleasantness.

Captain Gideon27 Dec 2017 8:33 a.m. PST

BTW Mister Tibbles from what I see Last Jedi is doing very well in theaters and is closing in on 800 Million worldwide might I ask where did you get your information?

I plan seeing it again early Jan and I do plan on buying it on Blu-Ray when it comes out a few months from now.

Axebreaker27 Dec 2017 9:11 a.m. PST

Luke could not blame himself for Darth Vader turning bad. How could he? So he is not responsible for Vader.
And I disagree with you about Luke only thinking about killing Ben. He's standing over the kid with his light saber drawn! What is Ben to think when the Force wakes him? Ben defeats Luke, and Luke's attempted murder is what turns Ben. And Luke knows it. It destroys him. Luke, in his hubris, believes that he is responsible for whatever Ben does.
In the Aristotelian sense of tragedy, Luke is a great man who is brought down by a flaw in his character.

Mark Hammil dislikes this because of the simplistic view that Luke could never do anything wrong. The mere thought of thinking of attempting the evil deed of murdering Ben spirals out of control. Luke thought he could do one evil deed, for the sake of good. It destroys his view of himself.
Hammil is denying complexity.
Personally I think that Luke attempting to redeem the foul evil thing he had done is even better than Luke never straying.

Mark Hammil disagrees not because he is too simplistic, but rather he is correct on Luke and who he is. Luke saved Vader and would have saved Ben simply because it was right. Luke is basically your Sir Percival of the Star Wars saga and not a weak indecisive man who would lose all hope so quickly. He just would never even think about striking down his nephew in such a cowardly fashion while he slept. That is flat out not Luke and he would never let his own failings stop him from doing what is right.

You are of course free to think of Luke as you suggested if that's how you see it, but I see it completely different.

Imho there is little doubt this is the most divisive film to date with little to gain where so many other options were available. A shame really.

BTW Mister Tibbles from what I see Last Jedi is doing very well in theaters and is closing in on 800 Million worldwide might I ask where did you get your information?

I plan seeing it again early Jan and I do plan on buying it on Blu-Ray when it comes out a few months from now.

Regardless how you feel Mister Tribbles was pointing out a fact stating the massive drop off in viewership in the second Friday. The film was heavily front loaded which suggests a great many are not going for a second bite. While it's true it going to make a bundle of money it's still punching way below expectations now. Sort of like selling a classic car for half what you expected and while you still made a bundle all you see is what you didn't get.

The backlash is real and while you may not like that it's still there.

That said if you are enjoying the films then that's great as I wouldn't wish an unpleasant experience on any fan, but many of us feel let down and that should hold equal water.

Christopher

DyeHard27 Dec 2017 9:46 a.m. PST

Luke is very much like Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi:
perhaps too close of an analog. The Luke vs. Kylo Ren light saber fight is just like Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Vader: a delay tactic to allow the others to slip away, with no attempt to "win", and knowing that in the end they would pass into vapor. "If you strike me down, you will only make me stronger"

Luke is a hermit living without using the force like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, until someone came and demonstrated they were needed.

And as far as not seeing Luke again, it would seem that passing into vapor does not end the characters ability to act in the galaxy.

About the story telling, making the Vader helmet and light saber into fetish items in TFA was interesting (and common in fantasy) but did not fit well in the Jedi religion. So this film corrected that, toss it away, rip it in half, burn the old books, it not about things it is about the connection between things. But will they dare go so far as trashing the Millennium Falcon?

Garand27 Dec 2017 10:32 a.m. PST

I hope Ben Kylo Ren is never redeemed. Lucas would have us believe that Vader saving Luke from the Emperor somehow makes up for the billions of people he had murdered and anihilated. I find that disgusting, and it's one of the reasons I'm glad that control of the Star Wars story was wrenched from Lucas's hands.

While I see your point, I think you have the imagery a little skewed. Vader's redemption was in the same vein as a Christian redemption -- his soul is "saved" so to speak. I won't go into Christian mythology as that might be a contentious point for some people, but that is exactly how I read it. If Vader had lived and was all forgiven because of his redemption, you'd have a point. But he conveniently died to spare us the lingering plotpoints of him standing trial, serving time, etc (though a reformed Anakin serving a life sentence or whatever would be appropirate barring death for plot reasons, might have made an interesting character for Luke to revisit from time to time I think…).

Damon.

28mm Fanatik27 Dec 2017 1:29 p.m. PST

Last Jedi having the largest 2nd week drop of any movie in history and being rated so low by fans, Disney is assuming and bracing for the disaster of a film named "Solo" to bomb at the box office.

It's true that TLJ has set a new record for the biggest single weekend drop so far, making $177 USD million less on its second weekend of release compared to opening weekend, but given recent blockbuster trends it would be premature to conclude that this is due to backlash from fans who disliked the film or that it will underperform in the long run.

Historically, the middle installment of any SW trilogy has always been the weakest in terms of box office performance. According to the following chart: link TESB made 32 percent less (37 percent domestically) than ANH and Episode 2 made 36 percent (35 percent domestically) less than Jar Jar Binks. Yes, it's true. Jar Jar Binks is the second highest grossing non-solo SW movie in history trailing only TFA. By contrast, TESB (considered to be the best SW film so far) made the least of any non-animated SW movie. Go figure.

So as long as TLJ makes anywhere between 62 to 68 percent of what TFA made after its theatrical run (between $1.28 USD and $1.40 USD billion worldwide) it would be consistent with what previous middle installments made in a SW trilogy.

The chart also shows that the final installment of the trilogy should do better than the middle film but still lag well behind the first.

And I'm not so sure that the stand-alone solo Solo (no pun intended) movie will bomb. It is based on a beloved SW character from the original trilogy (not newly invented characters for the younger generation as we've seen in the current trilogy). And the 'Rogue One' solo movie did quite well even with unfamiliar characters and no cameos from the old hands (Luke, Leia or Han) that we love.

Fans may suffer from "Star Wars fatigue" if Disney doesn't parcel them out slowly though. "Event movies" event-ually stop being event movies. One every year or every other year might still be too many too soon.

Mark Plant27 Dec 2017 11:20 p.m. PST

Please note there is an active campaign to "fix" the Rotten Tomatoes ratings Axebreaker. It doesn't reflect actual opinion of people.

Axebreaker28 Dec 2017 3:28 a.m. PST

Please note there is an active campaign to "fix" the Rotten Tomatoes ratings Axebreaker. It doesn't reflect actual opinion of people.

Mark I used rotten Tomatoes as an example and the reaction is common among many audience reviewed sites . In addition to audience reviews there is follow on ticket sales that have historically dropped off plus numerous youtube sites are loaded with reactions. The evidence is there that a large section of the fans/audience did not like the film. If you want to ignore the evidence or just believe that most of the negative things you hear are not true through some conspiracy then that is fine you of course can do so. I never claimed nobody liked it and in fact said that I and a great many did not. Once again if you and others you know are enjoying the new star wars then wonderful and I hope you continue to do so.

Christopher

Captain Gideon28 Dec 2017 1:22 p.m. PST

Axebreaker please let me know where you read this.

With regards to the youtube sites where I've seen many negative reviews and I really can't see why they hate the film.

I've seen all the Star Wars films yes even the prequels which I enjoy by the way,and I really couldn't find anything wrong with Last Jedi.

Axebreaker28 Dec 2017 2:02 p.m. PST

Captain Gideon

If you liked the film then that is perfectly fine and I'm not trying to tell you otherwise and actually happy you did. I happen to really enjoy SW and would not wish a bad experience on anyone. In fact I've enjoyed all SW including the prequels, but starting at VII I started having things I didn't care for, but was still optimistic that things would get better, but unfortunately they did not and instead became far worse then anything I expected.

I've already listed on two threads things in particular I did not like if you want an idea of how I saw it if your interested in reading them. If you like Lead Adventures forum I also contributed to similar thread there.

I'm not trying to invalidate your experience or anyone else and wished I enjoyed it as much as you did, but sadly that was not the case.

Imho the evidence is clear on the internet, various sites and film data that the audience is very divided on this film from actors, fans and casual viewers alike. If you do not believe that then once again that is your right and privilege to disagree for whatever reason. The poster asked for opinions and I gave mine. Once again enjoy your SW and go see TLJ again if you wish, but I'll take a pass on another go around.

Christopher

28mm Fanatik28 Dec 2017 3:59 p.m. PST

Here's a good summary of the "problems" SW fans had with TLJ. Mainly it had to do with not meeting their expectations and subverting what they believe SW should be:

link

The 8 reasons are: (1) Sorry, but Snoke is dead, (2) Leia floating through space, (3) Rey's parents, (4) Luke Skywalker meets his end, (5) Too much humor, (6) All the Canto Bight stuff, (7) It didn't build off TFA, and (8) It wasn't SW.

I would say those who are disappointed are more "invested" in SW than the more casual fans who didn't spend hours theorizing such weighty questions as "who is Snoke?" or "who are Rey's parents?" Or think that "Luke Skywalker would never give up!"

They didn't get the answers they were looking for or wanted to hear.

Axebreaker29 Dec 2017 4:38 a.m. PST

They didn't get the answers they were looking for or wanted to hear.

Or maybe it was just a bad movie to some. As for SW fans why make a movie to alienate half? It's like going to a Chinese restaurant and getting served only burger and fries and a token side order of noodles, that may be new,edgy and different, but not a good business plan if you want customers to come back. You can always keep the same successful format and just keep adding new elements to it to make it interesting without tearing it all down. Most people see a movie once and do not see it twice even if they liked it, but movies like SW, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings etc. build fan bases and those are the people who will see it multiple times so it's not a wise decision imho to discourage half from wanting to go to repeated viewings. The money and longevity of a series is in the fans and not the casual observer.

Once again I must say every person has a legit reason to like or not to like the film and should not be mocked for their opinions.

Christopher

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP30 Dec 2017 12:42 p.m. PST

"Long and boring." --the summation of a friend who saw it with me.
I have to agree.
I could list a thousand errors in plot, characterization, storytelling, narrative and dialogue, but there really isn't any point. It had the feel of too many hands in the script soup, sticking in stuff here, there and everywhere, cutting off questions from the earlier film (not to mention plot holes) by hanging so many lampshades on everything that it was the narrative equivalent of getting lost in the lighting department of IKEA. Whole courses of action chosen by the characters wound up having no point at all, denying them any agency to change the circumstances or situation. The code breaker search? A big null. Finding Luke? Useless. Ramming the enemy? Doesn't change the final result. Killing Snoke? No change. Escaping to the Rebel base? Nope. Charging the "battering ray"? Never mind. Torching the library tree? The texts are in the Falcon. In short, the heroes accomplished NOTHING of lasting consequence and learned nothing of use, or even gained any true personal growth. The whole thing was spectacle after spectacle, false climax after false climax, with no resolution of anything and no mystery left at the end. The answer to the question of "What happens next?" is quite simply, "Who cares?".
I know I don't.

Personal logo herkybird Supporting Member of TMP30 Dec 2017 3:23 p.m. PST

I think I am in the camp of 'Ok, but not brilliant' it seemed to play for me rather like an episode (and a long one!) in a larger series.
The only bit I didn't appreciate was having Poe put down, this film need heroes!
The original trilogy worked for me as it tried to follow the 'Rules' of the '30s and 40's 'Buck Rogers'style serials, which as time has gone by, seems to have been ditched by the studios.
PS: I did like the 'Phantom Menace', the other prequels less so.

LostPict Supporting Member of TMP31 Dec 2017 8:30 a.m. PST

I liked it. A bit like Mort d'Arthur. In my book, I believed that the time had come for SW to move past the original characters since the actors are so old and we're not apparently enthralled with the roles. I think the biggest thing missing from this new trilogy is an explanation about what happened between Episode 6 and 7. One thing to remember is that SW episode 4 was made for my generation, episode 1 for my children's generation, and episode 7 for my grandchildren. I wonder what the kiddies think of the movies?

chromedog31 Dec 2017 3:10 p.m. PST

I neither loved it nor hated it but I've only seen it the once so far. (not that I've got past double figures for any of the other 7, either).

It was better than ep1. That one was soooooo tedious.

Thank frell it's not another film about those skywalker brats.

Personal logo Lost Wolf Supporting Member of TMP31 Dec 2017 8:33 p.m. PST

Star Wars will make money because it has a built in fan base. Several people told me it was a bad movie. I went to see it because it's Star Wars. Except for a few small parts, I did not enjoy it. In fact, I thought it would never end. There is no way I can properly express my disappointment in the portrayal of Luke, I thought the potential story between Luke and Rey was wasted, and everything between the first scene and the last was precious time never to be recovered. The exception being Snoke's throne room. Finn and Rose added absolutely nothing to the story. They were either wasted or not needed. I think the latter. I grew up on the original and believe this was a huge injustice to its legacy. And that's a pity. In other words, it was a bad movie

Akalabeth02 Jan 2018 12:08 p.m. PST

Anyway however you view it Luke had to completely step out of character in order for that to happen and stay out of character for 30+years. Luke who just saw the smallest spark of good in his father was willing to do anything including sacrificing himself to turn him him back to the good side would suddenly even consider killing his best friends son and his nephew because he was having conflicts with the dark side is totally out of whack. Luke would never have given up on Ben and would have continued trying to turn him to the light even if it meant his own death.

Yeah Luke was willing to do anything to save his father, including murder the Emperor in his chair, and nearly kill his father in a blind rage until he stopped himself. Not to mention earlier in the movie he tried to murder an unarmed Jabba before being dropped through the floor. Basically Luke stopped himself when it counted, but just because he made that choice doesn't mean he's some paragon of virtue for all time.

The difference between good people and bad people, is that good people don't act upon evil thoughts, but they still have them. That's what Luke did in TLJ, he had an evil thought, he readied himself to carry it out, and instantly stopped himself but it was already too late. Because Ben saw his moment of weakness, and took it at face value.

The portrayal of Luke was fine, and it's in stark contrast to Ben Kenobi who smiles fondly about Anakin even though he cuts his arms and legs off and Anakin murdered a bunch of Jedi children. Not that I have a problem with A New Hope but the prequels didn't line up.

Luke's bitter, self-loathing portrayal in TLJ is far more realistic.

Dezmond02 Jan 2018 1:38 p.m. PST

>>Luke's bitter, self-loathing portrayal in TLJ is far more realistic.<<

Sigh.

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