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"Memphis removes Confederate statues" Topic


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1,750 hits since 21 Dec 2017
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
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Noble Crow21 Dec 2017 6:51 p.m. PST

link

The city of Memphis sold two public parks to a private non-profit for $1,000 USD each. The new private "owners" then immediately removed statues of Forrest and Jefferson Davis. The city had tried unsuccessfully for years to have the statues removed, but Tennessee state law stood in the way. So the nefarious city did an end run around the law to accomplish what they could not get done by legal means.

The statues were stored in an undisclosed location. The fate of the graves of General Forrest and his wife, which are also located in one of the parks has yet to be determined, but digging them up and reinterring them elsewhere seems a real possibility.

Frankly, I wish the State of Tennessee could sell Memphis to someone else. But who the hell would want to buy it?

Personal logo The Beast Rampant Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2017 7:05 p.m. PST

Frankly, I wish the State of Tennessee could sell Memphis to someone else. But who the hell would want to buy it?

I have a friend- who lived there for five or so years- who'd heartily agree with you.

KSmyth21 Dec 2017 8:13 p.m. PST

Frankly, I would much rather that the City of Memphis make these decisions in accordance their 21st Century needs and values than TMPers or the State of Tennessee.

This is a current news story. It has no value to any miniature wargame I've ever heard of and is in violation of the "ten year rule." Why is it allowed? Bill?

lloydthegamer Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2017 8:30 p.m. PST

Second KSmyth.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian21 Dec 2017 9:00 p.m. PST

Why is it allowed? Bill?

First, do you honestly expect me to personally read every topic instantly? Sheesh…

Second, seems relevant to Civil War history. I think we can discuss this with maturity, right? I've never been one for censorship…

Rakkasan21 Dec 2017 9:19 p.m. PST

Well, first of all, it does take time to get to every topic/review messages. This topic is not one that the non-American editors would immediately understand.

Second, there is censorship on this and almost every web site. That is what moderators do. On this site there is a Dawghouse, there is the "bleep" symbol, messages are deleted and whole topics topics/messages have disappeared. Heck, even some former members have had all of their topics deleted from the entire web site. So, there is censorship.

Finally, this is current politics not history. It is about the actions of a current city administration not the actions of military units in the Civil War nor the actions of a city administration from 2007. Per the rules of this website found in the FAQ section at (http://theminiaturespage.com/faq/forums.mv):
Can I discuss politics here?
Recent politics are not allowed. [POLITICS RULE] Discussion of political events more than ten years in the past is allowed.

Move this to the Blue Fez where it belongs.

Noble Crow21 Dec 2017 9:47 p.m. PST

KSmyth, I'll be the first to say I don't care to mix politics with my toy soldiers. So, I'm sorry if you found my post objectionable. I thought it would be of interest to those who enjoy gaming ACW and to all who believe in preserving our history. That was my intent, nothing more.

As an aside, I found nothing objectionable regarding your post earlier today about the Seattle Mariners serving grasshoppers at a game, and didn't give a second thought to its value to miniature wargaming. Additionally, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment earlier in the week regarding Joan Jett and her cover of "The Little Drummer Boy."

Honestly, I respect your opinion, and I hope you can respect mine.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2017 10:12 p.m. PST

I knew that sooner or later the current "cultural cleansing" movement would eventually get to the desecration of graves. I just didn't expect it so soon.

If people can't accept the past, however painful it may be, then they are only setting the groundwork for violence that should not be happening at this point, or with the current generation, specially over things that happened so long ago. The exhumation of graves is nothing but the exhumation of hatreds that should be in the past, among the dead and not the living.

Dan

Yellow Admiral Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2017 10:28 p.m. PST

I agree this topic should move to a current events forum. It's just going to generate dawghousings. "The statues" is one of the hottest and most acrimonious political topics in the US right now, and has nothing whatever to do with toy soldiers or gaming.

- Ix

KSmyth21 Dec 2017 10:41 p.m. PST

Noble Crow, I truly respect your right to your views expressed in an appropriate forum. This isn't it. My earlier posts were not political or inflammatory in nature-not were the topics my own, though I'm sure I've outraged Joan Jett fans everywhere.

Bill, I would remind you of your own words "Recent politics are not allowed. [POLITICS RULE] Discussion of political events more than ten years in the past is allowed." This is not a discussion of a historical event relevant to historical miniatures, it is an event evoking race and politics. You follow it and see where it goes--it's nukebait.

Cacique Caribe, read the damn article. There is no grave desecration involved. They've actually suggested moving Forrest's grave and his wife's back to their original location in Elmwood Cemetary.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2017 11:45 p.m. PST

KSmyth

I read the article as the website had it an hour or so ago.

My question is … is this piece not part of the article, in its original form, before any updates? Or are they Noble Crow's words?

"The fate of the graves of General Forrest and his wife, which are also located in one of the parks has yet to be determined, but digging them up and reinterring them elsewhere seems a real possibility."

Dan

Gwydion22 Dec 2017 12:54 a.m. PST

They seem a well travelled couple in death already.
It is doubtful whether moving them back whence they came to a designated burial ground would be any more disrespectful than moving them to a park in the first place.

Porthos22 Dec 2017 5:44 a.m. PST

As a European I find the discussion about statues interesting. We have in The Netherlands several satues of men whose behaviour is (now) challenged (Jan Pieterszoon Coen, generaal Van Heutz) and recently there was a question about a specific wall that was closely connected to the NSB-leader Anton Mussert (during the occupation of 1940-45 supporting the Germans). Up till now there is a consensus of not removing those historical important items, but try to explain more why the acts that those items remind us of are bad. THAT is, in my opinion, the only correct way of dealing with history.

Dynaman878922 Dec 2017 6:33 a.m. PST

> So the nefarious city

is interesting with that latter

> KSmyth, I'll be the first to say I don't care to mix politics with my toy soldiers

waaslandwarrior22 Dec 2017 6:34 a.m. PST

I agree with Porthos.
That is a good solution to that "problem".

Here in Belgium we have a more or less similar problem with street names. Named after people who in current times are not "political correct". The main problem now is people looking for streets that changed names recently. I think this is realy stupid, as nobody thinks about the peoples mentioned in the street names when you are looking for a certain street. Statues will follow soon I think…

Wackmole9 Supporting Member of TMP22 Dec 2017 7:15 a.m. PST

I just find it shameful for a government body to uses "Barracks lawyer" ways to get around the Law of the State.

muggins22 Dec 2017 7:20 a.m. PST

link

This historian's blog article provides the perfect solution.

These statues are pretty clear cases of the lost cause mythology and its attempt to keep a minority under the thumb of white power

"The Forrest statue was placed in 1904, as Jim Crow segregation laws were enacted. The Davis statue was placed in 1964, as the Civil Rights Movement changed our country."

Open and shut. Memphis is now 63% African American things change, these people don't revere one of the first leaders of the KKK as people did in 1904. Move on.

edit: its also a pretty clear case of local control, or 'states rights' on a city level. Statue lovers should be pretty happy with that, right?

skinkmasterreturns22 Dec 2017 7:23 a.m. PST

The MiniTruth at work…..

Pan Marek Supporting Member of TMP22 Dec 2017 10:55 a.m. PST

Ksmyth +1

Is selling the properties illegal?
If so, it can be challenged in court.
If not, done deal.

Voters elected representatives to put them up.
Voters elected representatives to take them down.

Pan Marek Supporting Member of TMP22 Dec 2017 10:57 a.m. PST

Noble- You did not "just post news" of the event. You tooK a very obvious stand on it.

Therefore, it is somewhat disingenuous for you to say you don't like to mix politics with toy soldiers.

forrester Inactive Member22 Dec 2017 11:09 a.m. PST

This IS about the KKK founder, yes?

Im amazed the statue has survived as long as it has. There are some memories that are the stuff of history, not public commemoration.

daler240D Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member22 Dec 2017 11:30 a.m. PST

Seems the city should have been able to decide these things without interference from the state. Kudos to them for doing what they felt was in their best interest.

Personal logo Bobgnar Supporting Member of TMP22 Dec 2017 11:54 p.m. PST

Perhaps this is relevant because as the south loses more and more memories of its participation in the American Civil War, we will cease to have representations of this war with miniature figures on tabletop battlefields .

Is it not the case that in the current German state there can be no representation of swastikas in miniature games. How much longer until there can be no confederate flags represented in the media including Media about wargames and the games themselves.

skinkmasterreturns23 Dec 2017 3:17 a.m. PST

There are plenty of Confederate flags to use beside the battle flag,and I'm sure that many of these people would scratch their heads and say So? because they have no idea what they are.

Personal logo jeffreyw3 Supporting Member of TMP23 Dec 2017 12:54 p.m. PST

Bobgnar, what actual evidence do you have to back up your assertion that Civil War miniature gaming will decline as a result of Confederate statues being moved to less public locations?

ScottWashburn Sponsoring Member of TMP23 Dec 2017 1:15 p.m. PST

The notion that removing the statues somehow destroys the history of the Civil War seems silly to me. It destroys the history of the STATUES, nothing more. And as has been pointed out the statues in question don't actually have anything to do with the Civil War, they had their own political agenda at the time they were erected. If people want to know about the history of the Civil War, the best place to learn--BOOKS--are still safe and sound.

Charlie 12 Inactive Member23 Dec 2017 7:41 p.m. PST

Not this again…..

The statues would have come down long age had the right wing Tennessee statehouse not poked its intrusive nose into the matter.

I just find it shameful for a government body to uses "Barracks lawyer" ways to get around the Law of the State.

And just who has control of the statues? The state? They're not paying for the upkeep. The locals? Well, it IS a CITY park. I think the "barracks lawyer" term applies more to the jerks in the statehouse (reaching down into a local issue) than the city council.

I suppose the one curious element is that the Right is always screaming about "local control". Until the locals do something they disapprove of, and then its we have to pull that out of the hands of those locals. A very large dose of hypocrisy, don't you know….

goragrad23 Dec 2017 9:50 p.m. PST

Actually, this comes down to local politicians acceding to outside and local special interest groups.

There was no referendum nor was it an issue that figured in council elections – too new to have done so.

I'd lay pretty good odds that the local non-profits have serious backing from non-local/out of state organizations.

Most of the outrage over this doesn't appear to be grassroots.

muggins23 Dec 2017 10:50 p.m. PST

Do you have any proof of that? From news articles it seems to have been an issue starting in 2013.

138SquadronRAF Supporting Member of TMP27 Dec 2017 9:35 a.m. PST

Let me see if I get this right, Uncle Billy Sherman is one of the most hated figures in the 'Merican South and yet there are no statues to him there.

So pray tell me how statues are necessary for memory?

Asking for a friend.

WolfeTone27 Dec 2017 11:41 p.m. PST

Oh no,not this topic….again! Good riddance.

Old Pete29 Dec 2017 2:35 a.m. PST

We've already discussed this topic at some length.
Might it not be wise just to leave it be ?

Personal logo Bobgnar Supporting Member of TMP29 Dec 2017 4:35 p.m. PST

Jeffrey W3, I see this as the arch typical slippery slope. I begin my statement with "perhaps". Maybe not a reduction in gaming, but a reduction in Iconography.

Consider the extent the Germans went to, to wipe out their bad memories. I don't think there is a decline in World War II western gaming in Germany,, just the flags? I can see a resolution in some southern state that prohibits any symbols of the Confederacy.

Limits in Germany
This includes specifically, but is not limited to the following:

any icon including a swastika, e.g. the party flag, the state flag, naval flags and ensigns, the logos of Nazi organisations and the Afrika Korps Palm Tree
any SS- or Waffen-SS-related insignia, e.g. SS runes, the SS Death's Head symbol, unit insignia of Waffen SS units
post-war neo-Nazi symbols, e.g. the "Black Sun" , the Triskel in a Nazi connotation and others
any symbols which closely resemble the above icons in shape and/or color, including (but not limited to) Finnish hakaristi, Asiatic manji etc

Ostrowski Inactive Member01 Jan 2018 9:37 a.m. PST

The bigoted, intolerant, racial agitators are trying to destroy our shared history and culture.

NO SURRENDER!

Charlie 12 Inactive Member01 Jan 2018 12:58 p.m. PST

GIVE IT A REST….

muggins01 Jan 2018 9:50 p.m. PST

Is "bigot" the next word (after "fake news") to completely lose all meaning?

Personal logo vonLoudon Supporting Member of TMP17 Jan 2018 12:28 p.m. PST

Yep, this one did not end well.

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