"squads shooting at squads" Topic
18 Posts
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stormbird | 21 Dec 2017 9:57 a.m. PST |
Hi all Looking to write my own rules for a simple game that has up to 3 platoons of 3 squads each and maybe up to 4 vehicles a side and fast play/minimum book keeping ? So I need a mechanism for Squads shooting at Squads ? I though of a single D10 for each squad with the following results ? 1-3 missed – could be green troops – misfire – jammed guns etc 4 – 6 – Squad pinned 7 – 9 – Squad suppressed 10 Squad destroyed. That leaves me with some options for in cover ? Say soft cover – hedge – wall – etc 4 & 6 Squad pinned 7 & 9 Squad suppressed Hard cover – building – bunker etc 5 Squad pinned 8 Squad suppressed In keeping with minimum book keeping and fast play I am trying to avoid unnecessary modifiers ……. .. saving rolls etc. Think Portable Wargame or One Hour Wargame :-) I don't want to use those rules as I want an initiative type play style like Crossfire or Company Commander , but slimmer/faster than both of those , rather than YOUGOIGO. Yes I know a tall order ! regards Paul |
Mick the Metalsmith | 21 Dec 2017 10:04 a.m. PST |
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Oldgrumbler | 21 Dec 2017 10:13 a.m. PST |
I do this: Squads each get 2 to 3 D6. Hit on short 3+, medium 4+, long 5+. 1 hit is a pin, 2 hits are a kill. Firer pinned – 1D6. Target moving +1D6. I do have a save (9+ on 2D6 modified by cover & the quality of the target) so it may not be to your liking, but it is fast & simple. |
Wolfhag | 21 Dec 2017 11:01 a.m. PST |
strombird, I think you are on the right track for a squad vs squad game. However, your results like "weapon jammed", and "misfire" are results for a 1:1 skirmish game. They do happen but not normally to the entire squad. In a squad vs squad game, you are really looking at a volume of accurate fire placed on the enemy per turn, not a shot by shot to determine a hit. How many turns are you looking at having and how much do you want the game results to depend on attrition? Are the turns a set number of minutes or abstracted? Historic: There is a British War Office report that concluded that a squad vs squad firefight with good defensive position (trench, etc) will generate a causality rate of about 5% or less per minute. Using a D10 5% would be rolling a 1 and then rolling a 1-5. Every man in the unit may be "hit" so you are not measuring the number of "hits" as in most games. Catching troops in the open like an ambush at close range could generate up to 75% causalities. Squads normally were ineffective with 25% or more causalities. Non-hostoric: Determine what a game should end with for the losers attrition rate. Many games have the losing side almost being wiped out but that's not historic. I'd think the best way would be to tweak your attrition results per turn to get the right outcome. So if you have a game with 10 turns and you want the loser to suffer about 75% causalities you'd need about a 6-10% causality rate per turn and the winner to suffer about half of that. That's just a rule of thumb and guideline. Pinned and suppressed are different matters. That would depend on a lot of how you are going to handle initiative. Just because you don't get historical results does not mean the game is not fun and entertaining so don't get so hung up on it. Good luck, Wolfhag |
Andrew Walters | 21 Dec 2017 12:04 p.m. PST |
I hate saving throws for armor or cover. Just breaks up the flow. You may want to avoid "unnecessary modifiers" from a streamlining point of view, but modifiers can be very evocative, they make the circumstance more real, and they give rise to tactics as you try to position your troops to get beneficial modifiers in both attack and defense. If you want to streamline I would suggest attacking the record keeping of various states, "pinned", "surpassed", "one hit". Reduce this to one state of disadvantage. The group either pulls itself together or it's eliminated. This way you have only one kind of marker on the board, and you avoid what I consider the hideous situation of a unit with two or more markers. Also, you want to leave room for varying qualities of troops and equipment, right? I'd say if you like the d10 say that a 8-10 hits the group (30%, make it 40% or 7-10 if you want a faster game), and 11+ destroys the group. A group that is hit gets a marker, call it "pinned" or whatever word feels right. This group can only move 1/2 or 1/4 and only away from the enemy or into cover. It can't fire or can only fire at adjacent enemies, whatever you like. It can spend a turn or action reorganizing which can require a roll or not as you like, and if it recovers it's back up to full strength. If you get hit again while disorganized the unit is eliminated. Then give +1 or +2 for excellent troops, good weapons, flanking fire, etc. -1 or -2 for cover/hard cover, moving fire. Give them some smoke grenades, give machine pistols +3 at very short range, bring in your favorite chrome and you're done. This is all derived from the Shieldbash rules I helped write for Zombiesmith, which can be downloaded free at their site. Those are medieval skirmish rules and use 3d6, but I think the design goals are similar to what your describing. Shieldbash gives very quick play with lots of flavor. |
stormbird | 21 Dec 2017 2:27 p.m. PST |
Thanks all for your input. The 2HW is about the only 1 I have not looked at ! OOPs seems I have CR ! Need to print and read all your idea's so I can understand exactly what you are saying in your examples. Initiative is another problem that needs some more thought , however I am thinking along simple lines of allowing one side to move from one terrain object to another until the opposition can get a suppression/destroyed on a squad ? Not looking for to much troop/equipment quality at first, more as Wolfhag suggests ' fun and entertaining '. As well as looking for modest numbers of infantry I am limiting myself to nothing more potent than a PzIII as I am interested in SCW – Fall of France and VBCW scenarios. Thanks again for your input ,lots to follow up , more questions to come. Forgot to say 15mm & small terrain 2' x 2' Paul |
coopman | 21 Dec 2017 4:40 p.m. PST |
Also, Columbia Games just released their "Combat Infantry" block boardgame. You might want to check it out. Each block is a squad or HQ unit and has a no. of strength steps. Each side has a certain no. of "assets" that it randomly picks from its available choices, which include a sniper, tanks, mortars, HMGs, etc. |
Wolfhag | 21 Dec 2017 9:04 p.m. PST |
strombird, One of the "fun and entertaining" things I've put into my game is the SNAFU Check. I use a D20 and when a 20 is rolled when shooting the players roll to see what went wrong. Some of the results for big guns and tanks is a round jammed, loader slipping (lose a turn of shooting), driver panics and back up, mechanism jammed, etc. For infantry, it can be an MG jamming, must change barrels (no shooting the next turn), run low on ammo, etc. Be creative. Wolfhag |
Frank Wang | 21 Dec 2017 10:52 p.m. PST |
I think this design is very good! no cover: 1-3 miss 4-6 suppressed 7-9 pin down 10 destroyed soft cover: 1-3 miss 4 suppressed 5 miss 6 suppressed 7 pin down 8 miss 9 pin down 10 destroyed soft cover: 1-4 miss 5 suppressed 6-7 miss 8 pin down 9 miss 10 destroyed Am i right? almost there i guess. It's very good, easy to remember, no modifies. |
Whirlwind | 22 Dec 2017 12:38 a.m. PST |
What Wolfhag said. I think that a squad shooting at a squad in the open with magazine rifles onwards would suppress about 100% of the time without something else very specific going on. |
UshCha | 22 Dec 2017 2:26 a.m. PST |
Y0u seem to have missed bits. US manuals cover fox holes, fighting positions and bunkers. You proably need a modifirer for bunkers. You are not really going to be credible if you cannot get the beaches of Normandy right. In addition you need to match the hit rate to the effects of suppression and pinning so that you get the number of bounds you want an engahemet to last correct. |
stormbird | 22 Dec 2017 6:32 a.m. PST |
Hi all Not thinking of buying anyone else's rules , also there are loads of free ones to tinker with. Terrain – bunkers/fox holes etc bit specialist for the moment , to much other stuff to think of ? Not though of how many turns I want the game to run more in how long I don't want it to be :-) When you say turns is that per player or both players added together ? Quick play is not going to be historically accurate [ what ever that is ] and stuff will always have to be left out. Of course historically accurate varies from theatre to theatre and across the years etc. Don't have to be ' creditable ' as no intention of selling these rules , this is just for the mental challenge of writing them and to be played either solo or with a friend. regards paul |
UshCha | 22 Dec 2017 8:08 a.m. PST |
Whaterver you write for even yourself. Don't start with the rules start with what you want. If you struggle with the achedemic bit how long, what factors, how terrain will impact stuff, write yourself a story of a battle you want to fight. It will give you an insight into what you want. |
ChrisBrantley | 22 Dec 2017 11:12 a.m. PST |
Seems much more likely that a squad would be pinned or suppressed than wiped out as result of a single exchange of fire. Instead of 1D10, which makes each result have an equal percentage chance, consider using 1d20 or alternatively 2D6 or 2D10 to get a bell curve of results. |
Andy ONeill | 22 Dec 2017 11:29 a.m. PST |
The opposed roll mechanism used in the likes of dbm and stargrunt2 is much more involving for the player of the targetted squad. Plus, you get that bell curve of multiple dice mechanisms like doubling the other score are a nice plus. The sg2 dice size shifting mechanism is also easier to follow than pluses or a table of results. Sg2 is also free. It's more complicated but not much more than you already have. |
stormbird | 22 Dec 2017 3:31 p.m. PST |
Hi all ' Seems much more likely that a squad would be pinned or suppressed than wiped out as result of a single exchange of fire '. Well in the light of this statement which seems highly likely ? I gave it more though. What I wanted to do was follow the Crossfire mechanism so fire effects would be :- miss – pinned -suppressed – eliminated A squad can also be eliminated if it receives 2 suppressions ? The other mechanism was a platoon withdraws if 2 squads are eliminated so not having an implicit moral test to do , neither allowing squads to fight to the last man ? Looking at Wolfhag's post in relation to my original dice values ? 3 Platoons with 3 Squads each so attrition to the point where all 3 Platoons retire would be 66%/platoon ? over 10 turns that would be 7% attrition/turn ? unsure of how to work maths after this point ? as original dice values gave :- miss 30% – pinned 30% – suppressed 30% – eliminated 10% maybe I should re-jig them ? miss 40% – pinned 40% – suppressed 20% needing a second suppression to eliminate the squad ? Yes I intend to have subtle pinned/suppression markers and use the number of squads as a sort of moral indicator as above. Thing is I can always do this by running some test games and tweaking dice rolls from their results , rather than grapple with maths I don't currently understand ? 'The opposed roll mechanism used in the likes of dbm and stargrunt2 is much more involving for the player of the targetted squad' I think I understand what you are saying the targeted squad feel they have some control over the outcome of the attack ? but is that really like a saving throw ? and will slow down the game as there are 2 throws for each attack ? regards Paul |
Wolfhag | 22 Dec 2017 11:47 p.m. PST |
stormbird, This is all well and good – as far as attrition is concerned. What about maneuver? The approach I always take is to first look at the manuals and attempt how to portray the basic attack and defend tactics of the period. For WWII basic small unit tactics in the attack are fire & maneuver with suppression of the target and the ability to move under fire is the key to success. For defense, it is mutually supporting positions, fire lanes, ambushes and fall back positions with tactical reserves ready for a counterattack at the right time. I realize that's a tall order. I think to get the right ratios a 3-1 odds in firepower should suppress the enemy enough to allow the maneuver element to succeed. With a squad of three teams that could be two teams with an attached MG laying down suppressive/covering fire against one enemy team or position and the third team as the maneuver element. I know the USMC published a report on different permutations of suppression/maneuver ratio and chances of success. Small maneuver teams flanking the enemy have a better chance than one squad suppressing and two maneuvering. Many players end up using a good rule set to engage in a long-range multi-turn shooting contest with all attrition and no maneuver. But that can be fun too. For suppression and bookkeeping, I use a small D6 next to the unit to track the level of suppression. When it gets to 6 there is a morale check. Outnumbered in firepower at 3-1 odds puts one level of suppression on a Veteran unit, two on a Trained unit and three on a Green unit (no die rolls). 2-1 odds is no suppression for a Vet (he can recover one suppression level), one for Trained and two for Green. You get the idea. If firepower fails to put an additional level of suppression on the target it recovers a level automatically (auto rally). Falling back out of LOS recovers the unit back to normal rewarding the player for using a good tactic. You know this is only going to get more complicated. Wolfhag |
Andy ONeill | 23 Dec 2017 3:53 a.m. PST |
Both players roll off at the same time for an opposed roll. It does often slow things down a little in our games because the players will interact, bragging mock threatening etc etc. Which is part of fun. If you've not looked at it then I recommend you download sg2 from the ground zero games web site and give it a twirl. It's aimed at sci fi but easily adapted to ww2. In real worl combat, it's entirely possible for a platoon vs platoon action to go on all day with zero casualties. Suppression effects are far more likely until you get into close combat. This is when by far the majority of casualties happen. ( From other infantry ). There's a weird effect where an assaulting section can get almost to close combat but then just halt in cover. But… you could even consider a mechanism where a section takes no permanent effect until in close combat range and then you just remove losers. Once within hand grenade, smg and bayonet range ww2 combat was often very one sided. Pretty much any assault should break at 30 percent casualties and most should falter and or break before that. Basic tactics should mean your whole platoon is never all up and moving at once and those taking cover are very unlikely to be hit by fire. |
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