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"North Korea's Anthrax Missiles" Topic


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Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 Dec 2017 11:31 a.m. PST

"North Korea has started experiments such as heat and pressure equipment to prevent anthrax from dying even at a high temperature of over 7,000 degrees generated at the time of ICBM's re-entry into the atmosphere," the report stated. "In part, there is unconfirmed information that it has already succeeded in such experiments."

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North Korea's justification is that the US used bacteriological weapons against them in the Korea War. For a discussion of this topic, see Wikipedia: link

hocklermp520 Dec 2017 12:36 p.m. PST

Anthrax weaponized is horrible stuff. The key word with Biologicals or Chemicals is "weaponized". Delivering the agent effectively is tricky. There are far better means of delivery than by ICBM. The ICBM talk is aimed at the US or our bases in the Pacific.

Might be a good spot to point out that political regimes in trouble at home always look outside the mess they are in for a "Foreign Other" to divert their people's attention and unify the country against the foreign threat. History is chock full of examples. The Norks are in internal meltdown so beating the war drums is about the only play they think they have. Deleted by Moderator

Stryderg20 Dec 2017 1:25 p.m. PST

I figure the main problem with bio weapons is not letting them get loose on your home turf. But I could be wrong (I think that happened, once).

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP20 Dec 2017 1:41 p.m. PST

If Lil Kim has the delivery capability, then it's only a matter of time before one or more American cities gets hit and will need to be evacuated for a very long time.

From what I remember, that stuff stays active for long periods of time.

Dan
PS. If they do have an accident, and many North Koreans are killed because of it, they could easily blame it on the US and use it as an excuse for "retaliation ". The guy is that unpredictable and opportunistic. And useful. That's why China "will not tolerate any attempt at regime change".
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Lion in the Stars20 Dec 2017 2:46 p.m. PST

I figure the main problem with bio weapons is not letting them get loose on your home turf. But I could be wrong (I think that happened, once).

I think that was chemicals, not bio. At least in the US. The Brits still have Anthrax Island.

Littlest Kim will have a very bad day if he launches. The world would probably see 3 separate mass launches from the middle of the Pacific Ocean and the reduction of the Korean Peninsula into the Island of Korea.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP20 Dec 2017 5:29 p.m. PST

Even if Lil Kim sends a couple of anthrax ladened missiles our way, I can only imagine two potential scenarios.

One is very short, but the least likely. Lil Kim gets killed with one or two missiles aimed at his location. Any remaining generals sue for peace. US and the international community are then stuck with the responsibility of feeding and caring for the population.

The other one is a bit longer. And the one most likely to happen. The US retaliates with a few missiles aimed at NK, killing Lil Kim. Then China EMPs the US lower 48, and what follows is conventional warfare stretched out all along the Pacific rim, from the South China Sea to Alaska, to California. China enters North Korea and sets up another dictator there. The U.N. warns the US against the use of any further nukes. Russia would probably sit it out or (more likely) take advantage of the opportunity to annex a couple of European nations. But without a manufacturing base, similar to what we had back during WW2, we wouldn't be able to maintain our side of the war effort for long.

Just speculation of course, by a lowly layman.

Dan

Charlie 1220 Dec 2017 7:58 p.m. PST

Then China EMPs the US lower 48, and what follows is conventional warfare stretched out all along the Pacific rim, from the South China Sea to Alaska, to California.

If you think firing a nuke at the US, regardless of who does it, won't result in a massive response (with lots and lots of "instant sunshine") by the US, then you're just drinking your bath water. Conventional warfare? You just nuked us and you expect us to fight you conventionally?!?!? Now, THAT is funny!
BTW, the entire US missile system is hardened from EMP. And everybody knows it… For good reason…

Its not called MAD for nothing… And EVERYBODY knows it (especially the CHINESE).

Charlie 1220 Dec 2017 8:02 p.m. PST

BTW, last I read, the US considers the use of chem/bio weapons as the same as using nuclear weapons. In other words, throw one at us, and you're get the full treatment. And the UN and the rest of the world be damned…

Caedite Eos20 Dec 2017 9:13 p.m. PST

Anthrax Island was decontaminated nearly 30 years ago apparently.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 Dec 2017 9:59 p.m. PST

If you think firing a nuke at the US, regardless of who does it, won't result in a massive response (with lots and lots of "instant sunshine") by the US, then you're just drinking your bath water.

Maybe he thinks an EMP attack will knock out the ability to retaliate?

Charlie 1220 Dec 2017 11:01 p.m. PST

Maybe he thinks an EMP attack will knock out the ability to retaliate?

Thought wrong. The entire system is hardened against EMP. Your ATM may crap out, but the retaliatory strike will work just fine…

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2017 3:17 a.m. PST

Calm down guys. The EMP isn't to take out our nukes. It's to take out our ability to conduct a sustained war effort.

What allowed us to win WW2? Our massive manufacturing base. We don't have much of it left but what we do have is wide open to the effects of an EMP. The electrical power grids will be disrupted, damaged or destroyed. Try running any factory without power in this day and age.

Also the EMP will help create massive civil chaos, riots. Inability to deliver food within the country. This forces us to address a nationwide crisis at home while trying to fight a war, with the public demanding peace because food can't get to them, food that could be waiting for pick up just a few hundred miles away.

TMP link

How many months can our troops maintain their morale without being able to hear from their loved ones, specially if there are reports of nationwide civil disturbances?

Basically the EMPs would be to force us to give up any type of sustained offensive after just a few weeks or months.

Dan
PS. Question: Could their EMPs be in orbit already, posing as simple communication satellites, set up to drop out of orbit and detonate? Is that tech available?

wyeayeman21 Dec 2017 6:29 a.m. PST

Who would China sell their crap to if there was a war? World trade is too inter-connected for any educated and same person to contemplate (…oh dear)

Skinflint Games21 Dec 2017 8:21 a.m. PST

I can't help but think the US missile defence grid is a bit more comprehensive than what we've seen in public. Not enough to take on a full scale Russian or Chinese strike, but if Kim lobs a half dozen missiles, the US then shoots them down before a momentous barrage of missiles ploughs into every significant NK structure. Not nukes but thermobarics, bunker busters etc, to decimate NK infrastructure.

Trump (if he has any sense) then turns to the Chinese and says "Your problem now".

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2017 8:24 a.m. PST

Skinflint Games

I hope that's the case. Though their attacks could be delivered via shipping containers or suitcase and they could claim that their missiles hit their intended targets.

Unless NK has been supplied better guidance systems, those missiles aren't going to be that accurate.

Just throwing out ideas.

Dan

Caedite Eos21 Dec 2017 10:36 a.m. PST

You think Xi, Putin and Trump really give about Korea.

The idea that the Chinese think they can pull off an emp strike is absurd. A ballistic missile detection system doesn't know what's in the missiles. We'd have the laminated cards out quicker than Jack in a white house.

Caedite Eos21 Dec 2017 10:37 a.m. PST

I meant Bleeped text house. But Sigmund Freuds auto correct had better ideas

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2017 11:29 a.m. PST

Caedite Eos

Lol. I love auto-correct.

So you think Xi was kidding when he recently (September) said via a foreign minister that "China would not tolerate a regime change in North Korea, even if it means war"?

Dan

JimDuncanUK21 Dec 2017 11:32 a.m. PST

Anthrax Island is actually called Gruinard Island and was decontaminated last century.

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Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2017 11:46 a.m. PST

Jim

I didn't know until now that cutaneous anthrax can be spread by flies and other flying and crawling insects.

That stuff is extremely difficult to contain, but not impossible.

Dan

Lion in the Stars21 Dec 2017 3:44 p.m. PST

World trade is too inter-connected for any educated and same person to contemplate (…oh dear)

That's what people said in 1914, too.

China has said that if the North starts the fight, they're staying out.

China has also said that anything that gives the possibility of radioactive contamination of Chinese soil will result in China invading North Korea.

What that sounds like to me is that the US lever is to threaten to destroy the Nork's plutonium-production facility to force the Chinese to invade and put a less crazy fool in charge of North Korea. Though I suppose the US might actually have to destroy the facility to call China's bluff, which would be unfortunate.

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I think, post-9/11 and letter scares, that we have better decontamination capabilities for anthrax. But decontaminating a city would still be nearly impossible.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP23 Dec 2017 4:03 a.m. PST

"That's what people said in 1914, too."

Exactly. Nothing should be treated as inconceivable.

Dan

Charlie 1223 Dec 2017 7:11 p.m. PST

World trade is too inter-connected for any educated and same person to contemplate (…oh dear)

That's what people said in 1914, too.

Not correct. (And people so love that idiotic analogy…)

In 1914 the idea was that the world powers were too DIPLOMATICALLY inter-connected to allow a general war. And, on the face of it, that was the case. Major, multi-power conflicts had been avoided for 50+ years. Unfortunately, the very structure of the treaties would fail them in the end.

As for today, with the deep ECONOMIC inter-connections/inter-dependency between China, US, etc., the chances of a repeat of 1914 is far, far less. Attacking the US for anything less the most dire reasons would be tantamount to gutting your own economy for generations to come. China knows that all too well.

The only way a general war (which would turn nuclear in short order. Sorry Dan, your "conventional" war fantasy is just that, a fantasy… especially with your "first we let off a nuke over Kansas" scenario…) could occur is if either party felt extreme existential threat.

Charlie 1223 Dec 2017 7:29 p.m. PST

"China would not tolerate a regime change in North Korea, even if it means war"

"as long as we are not the ones doing it…" That's the unspoken tag-line.

China will not tolerate a US aligned power on its border. China is not going to get pulled into some idiocy on the part of Lil Kim. China will not tolerate a war spilling over its border.

That's pretty much their position.

So as long as the little twerp in Pyongyang confines himself to saber rattling, they'll put up with him. The moment he threatens to overly rock the boat (like throwing a missile at the US or US allies), he'll find himself on the business end of a QSW-06 (the PLA's pistol of choice). And he won't like it….

Lion in the Stars24 Dec 2017 1:40 p.m. PST

@Charlie 12: Perhaps you should review just how interconnected the European Powers were trade-wise.

For example: French military uniforms were made from a mix of red, white, and blue threads, the result looked Khaki (and is actually a pretty effective camo). Except that the red dye came from Germany, so when the war started French uniforms were only made from Blue and White threads.

Charlie 1225 Dec 2017 3:18 p.m. PST

Well, trade between different peoples has been going on since the first pre-history villager wandered down to the next hamlet to trade woven baskets for flints. So, yes, there was considerable international trade in the lead up to WWI. The difference between then and now is the depth and breadth of the trade. The level of that activity just between the US and China is many magnitudes larger and deeper than the whole of 1914 Europe. Its like comparing the yearly sales of a mom-and-pop grocery to those of Walmart…

To give an example of just how extensive this is, imagine your local mall if EVERY off shore produced item was removed. You'd have an awful lot of bare shelves (probably ALL the shelves). And it goes both ways. The bulk of the heavy earth moving equipment in China bears the Caterpillar badge. And I won't even go into the financial side (who holds the bulk of US bonds? Answer: China…).

China knows this. So does the US. Baring a massive miscalculation (also possible, however remote), the odds of a US vs China war is about as likely as the Browns winning the Superbowl….

Lion in the Stars25 Dec 2017 10:18 p.m. PST

And I won't even go into the financial side (who holds the bulk of US bonds? Answer: China…).

No.

The US population holds the majority of US bonds (mostly in Social Security).

China is the single largest foreign holder of US debt, and owns a single-digit percentage of it. In absolute dollars, China owes the US about as much as the US owes China (it's almost all old loans from previous Chinese governments). So basically, if China tries to call the US debt it owns, the US looks at China and says, "Fine. We are paying the debt you currently hold by forgiving the debts you owe us." (That the current government of a country is still responsible for a previous government's debts is settled international law, no matter how much China wishes it to be otherwise.)

But you are correct, in that the odds of a Sino-American War are very slim.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2017 12:02 p.m. PST

People with a lot more to lose have gone to war before over the most illogical reasons.

Yes, perhaps a Sino-American War is not probable. But it's still possible.

Still, they keep winning and advancing without a single shot being fired, specially with their Maritime Silk Road (naval bases in the SCS, Sri Lanka, Namibia):
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Beijing can do ANYTHING it wants to do in the South China Sea even an invasion of Taiwan because it knows the US and the rest will not do a damn thing about it … except some occasional harsh words (totally expected by them, because they know we would need "to save face").

Dan
PS. Besides, what we know of their capabilities and intentions is only what we are allowed to know about, via their tightly controlled government-owned media outlets. But it looks like we might see some interesting things happening soon:
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Last year we even invited the Chinese to train on our military bases in Hawaii. Most importantly, right before the Pentagon and the WH experienced several hacking attempts, the US had some of their top ranking military officials visit our Pentagon. I don't think the Chinese have ever reciprocated (or ever will).

Daniel26 Dec 2017 3:15 p.m. PST

North Korean Soldier Who Defected Is Immune To Anthrax

A North Korean soldier who defected to the South was found to have antibodies to anthrax triggering concerns the rogue regime has weaponized the deadly bacteria, according to reports Tuesday.

The man, who was either exposed to or vaccinated for anthrax, had developed immunity to the deadly disease before defecting, UPI reported, citing local Channel A.

A South Korean intelligence official who spoke on condition of anonymity did not say which of the four soldiers who fled the hermit kingdom this year had the antibodies in his system.

The discovery is causing concern in Seoul because the disease can kill at least 80 percent of those who are exposed to the bacterium in 24 hours unless antibiotics are taken or vaccination is available.

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Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2017 6:12 p.m. PST

Hmm … Maybe they let him "defect" precisely for this type of reaction from our governments and our media. Maybe this is his mission.

Looks to me like Lil Kim wants to be in the news every week. He's the "If they won't love me, then let them fear me" kind of loser.

Dan

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