"The Teutonic Knights" Topic

Hello everyone,

For The Teutonic Knights in the thirteenth century – it is written on page 37 in the edition of May 1989 of the book "Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300" by Ian Heath, that the sergeants of the Teutonic order were 6 to 10 ( half being crossbowmen like at the Battle of Grunwald ?) per knight and that these sergeants wore gray tunics with a black, 3 armed Tau cross also called a cruz commissa which looked like a capital ‘T' …

The Teutonic sergeants do not wear coats at any time ?

At Grunwald, he has only two sergeants per knight ?

The mounted Teutonic crossbowmen carrying white pavois with a black cross as illustrated in the "Heere & waffen" N ° 6 ?

In the beautiful book "Banderia Apud Grunwald" Volume II, the gray tunics with a black, 3 armed Tau cross are worn by the confrères or Halbbrüder who also wear gray capes with a black, 3 armed Tau cross !

In the thirteenth century, the confreres or Halbbrüder bear as a distinctive sign of the order, only the white coat of the brother knights …

At the Battle of Grunwald, the mounted Teutonic sergeants (And mounted crossbowmen ?) wore a gray tunic with a black cross (not a 3 Tau cross army as in XIIIe century, these being carried by the confreres) as illustrated in the "Heere & waffen" N °7 ?

Why so many differences ?

Who says true ?

I'm waiting for more documentations but as you know your connaissances are welcome …

Paskal

Why so many differences? Probably because, as with most medieval stuff, the existing sources and evidence are patchy, inconsistent, and incomplete. Modern researchers have to use a 'best guess' interpretation of the information that survives!

Yet he has modern historians more serious than others, no?

Last I heard, based on purchase records, even the caparisons on the horses was a modern invention.

There is an earlier thread discussing crosses (etc) at TMP link

The translation of the Rules of the Order at link only mentions that labouring brethren should wear "garments of a religious hue, but not with the full cross". I'm not sure if this is the origin of the "tau cross".

Last I heard, based on purchase records, even the caparisons on the horses was a modern invention.

Andrzej Nowakowski's "Arms and Armour in the Medieval Teutonic Order's State in Prussia" has some references to iron horse-armour in surviving 14th-century (I think) inventories.

Who wears the "tau cross"? And when ?

The sergeants or the confreres or Halbbrüder ?

Well it's really weird, I thought the Teutonic were better known than that?

Paskal, your question also keeps me occupied and my guess is (based on what I have been reading through the years) that the Halbbruders wore the "Tau cross" but I have no idea about the sergeants.

@ BelgianRay

The Halbbruders wore the "Tau Cross" ? When in the 13th century or the 15th century?

Teutonic Knights Fight Lithuanians on a Frieze, bas-relief from the Castle of Marienburg, first half of the 14th century may be of interest.

mirror site:
Teutonic Knights Fight Lithuanians on a Frieze, bas-relief from the Castle of Marienburg, first half of the 14th century

Druzhina
14th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Druzhina where are your "Tau Cross" on your documents?
…
According to Rolf Fuhrmann in his "Heere & Waffen" N ° 6 & 7, only the Halbbruders wore the "Tau Cross" …

The figures on this frieze do not appear to have Tau crosses. I don't have any contemporary images that show Tau crosses.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Alas Druzhina but I think as Rolf Fuhrmann in his "Heere & Waffen" N ° 6 & 7,that only the Halbbruders wore the "Tau Cross" …

But on the other hand, in the famous Codex Manesse, the famous Tannhaüser who was a Halbbruder is dressed in the white coat of the Teutonic knights but he does not wear the "Tau Cross" … So I do not know what he is …

Teutonic Knights in grey tunics are illustrated on the Tomb effigy of Conrad of Thuringia, Hochmeister of the Teutonic Knights, Sankt Elisabeth Kirche – Marburg and Der Tanhuser (Tannhäuser), Codex Manesse, early 14th century, Cod. Pal. germ. 848, Große Heidelberger Liederhandschrift
Both are referenced by Teutonic Knight in Habit in Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300 by Ian Heath

mirror sites:
Tomb effigy of Conrad of Thuringia, Hochmeister of the Teutonic Knights, Sankt Elisabeth Kirche – Marburg
Der Tanhuser (Tannhäuser), Codex Manesse, early 14th century, Cod. Pal. germ. 848, Große Heidelberger Liederhandschrift
Teutonic Knight in Habit in Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300 by Ian Heath

Druzhina
13th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Teutonic Knights in grey tunics are illustrated on the Tomb effigy of Conrad of Thuringia, Hochmeister of the Teutonic Knights, Sankt Elisabeth Kirche – Marburg and Der Tanhuser (Tannhäuser), Codex Manesse, early 14th century, Cod. Pal. germ. 848, Große Heidelberger Liederhandschrift ???

Where are their gray tunics ??????

In the famous Manesse Codex, the famous Tannhaüser wears a unique blue not a gray tunic and does not wear the "Tau Cross" …

So it was the sergeants who wore it on a gray tunic as explained by Ian Heath …

Yet Rolf Fuhrmann in his "Heere & Waffen" No. 6 & 7 says exactly the opposite,the "Tau Cross" is for the Halbbruders …
And in the beautiful book "Banderia Apud Grunwald" Volume II, the gray tunics with a black, 3 armed Tau cross worn by the Halbbrüder who also wear gray capes with a black, 3 armed Tau cross!

A cat would not find her children!

Most of the paint has worn off the effigy but the grey can be seen in the V of the neckline.

Taking some samples – the tunic of Tannhaüser has slightly more green than blue, as do his shoes.

There may be no direct evidence of a Tau cross, it may have been inferred from "garments of a religious hue, but not with the full cross". The Tau cross my not have been worn by any Teutonic Order troops.

Ian Heath gives us his conclusion without citing the evidence.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

The Tau cross my not have been worn by any Teutonic Order troops ?

In the thirteenth century ?

It is probablefor the thirteenth century but not in the fifteenth because in the beautiful book "Banderia Apud Grunwald" Volume II,gray tunics with a black, 3 armed Tau cross are worn by the Halbbrüders or confreres who also wear gray capes with a black, 3 armed Tau cross!

in the beautiful book "Banderia Apud Grunwald"

Do they cite any sources?

Sometimes a story pops up and is then repeated again and again from this one speculation, until it becomes "common knowledge" – without any real substance in the sources. A good example is the "scottish" engineer at Constantinople, Johannes Grant, with only one speculation by Runciman at the roots of his "scot" descend. Another (closer to this subject) might be the participation of knights of the Deutschritterorden at Liegnitz.
Perhaps "Tau" crosses are a similar artifact. We could try to dig out the earliest reference to that claim, and its source. If Druzhina says he found no contemporary depiction, there is probably none.

Puster, I believe Druzhina, so maybe:

1 / The Ritterbrüders would have a white tunic (a white surcoat in the war) with a black cross on the chest with a white cloak with a black cross on the left shoulder.
2 / The Sarjantbrüders would have a gray tunic (a gray surcoat in the war) with a black cross (but not a "Tau cross") on the chest, but no cloak.
3 / The Halbbrüders or confreres would have a gray tunic (a gray surcoat in the war) without a cross and a white cloak with a black cross on the right shoulder.

The shields of all types of Ritterbrüders and Sarjantbrüders would all be white with a black cross (but not a "Tau cross") and Halbbrüders or confreres could carry part of their coat of arms on their shields …

And it would be the same at the time of Grunwald …

And for the Knights of the Sword and The Knights of Dobrzyn, someone knows their rules – please see my topics on them -.

Sounds the best educated guess you can make at the moment.

Yes I must not be far from the truth…

Now ,the big question is: Yes or no the Teutonic knights wear their coats and their horses their houses, in combat?

By dint of searching, I now know that the sergeants of this order wore gray surcoats with normal crosses not a Tau cross, and of course their haubert were less complete …