"Ticonderoga or Carillon" Topic

I am slightly confused by the custom that has been developing of referring to the action of 8th July 1758, which I grew up calling the battle of Ticonderoga, as 'Carillon.'

I can understand why there are those who might want to specify that the British attack was directed againt the French Fort Carillon, and so correct any mistaken belief that the fort was called Ticonderoga at that date.

I suppose one could be equally specific and say the battle was not at the fort but at the barricade erected some distance in front.

Ticonderoga was, moreover, the name of the narrows which were the reason for a fort being constructed on that spot and those narrows were reason the British had to come that way, which led to the disastrous attack.

It is not as if there was a place called 'Carillon' after which the French post was named. It seems strange, therefore to talk about the 'Battle of Carillon' as I have seen scattered about the web. I think this may stem from a Canadian historian writing in the 1950s. Whether there was some sort of national agenda at play, as if reclaiming the event for Canada, I wouldn't know.

Being a traditionalist and Scottish, it is perhaps understandable I should favour the traditional name and, of course, the disaster that befell the British troops at Ticonderoga is the main reason the events of 8th July 1758 are remembered today. The attack had little importance otherwise, except to add a chapter to British regimental folklore. The fort was captured subsequently and Canada was lost to the French. The more significant event was, arguably, the death of Lord George Howe on the day preceding the main action.

Ticonderoga existed before the building of Fort Carillon and remained after it was captured and abandoned and, if I am honest,I also believe that Ticonderoga, with its mysterious Algonquin resonance, does just sound better than the musical but colourless 'Carillon.'

"We shall meet again at Ticonderoga."

What do others think?

Yes, Ticonderoga is just fine with me. I've visited the fort and the name matches the area and the majestic fort. I will be back for another look this coming summer.

Generals always name their actions, win or lose. So what did Montcalm and Abercrombie use? Wikipedia uses Carillon.

It has been decided under governor de Vaudreuil in 1755, to build a fort where the lake "Saint Sacrement" (actually Lake George) joins the lake "Champlain" by the "La Chute" river, in order to prevent an attack on Canada and slow the advance of the enemy long enough for reinforcements to arrive. By this time, the area is chosen so as to control the southern point of Lake Champlain as well as access to the Hudson Valley.

The noise of this river "La Chute", which means waterfall, give the name of the fort: "Fort Carillon" constructed on "Tyeonderoga" or "Ticonderoga".

It seems to me that the calling of the action should be: "the battle of Fort Carillon" or "the battle of Ticonderoga" but not "the battle of Carillon".

I like the map!

I must confess I was surprised to see, on this fine map, 'Town of Carillon' in reference the settlement on the lakeside outside the fort. A slight gilding of the lily, perhaps.

Nonetheless, in the survey of the sources I looked at, the references were overwhelmingly either to 'Ticonderoga' or 'Fort Carillon', with 'Carillon' only being used as a short hand after an initial reference to Fort Carillon.

The Wikipedia article does indeed use plain 'Carillon' as in 'Battle of.' My impression is that it was drafted by a Canadian on something of a mission, although I stand to be corrected.

As far as I am aware, it doesn't reflect English language usage of the previous 250 years

It's not as if anyone is forcing you to use the "new" name out of political correctness.
In fact, I would think PC would require the Indian name.

Possibly it's to avoid confusion with the more well known capture of Fort Ticonderoga by Ethan Allen and Benedict Arnold nearly twenty years later?
I dare say that's what most people think of when they hear "Ticonderoga." (Not that there was any sort of battle involved, except perhaps between Allen and Arnold over who got the credit.)

Since the current trend in some Francophone groups is to refer to conflict that took place in North American between 1756 and 1763 as "The War of Conquest". Given the ongoing linguistic battles in Canada,it is only natural that there should also be a movement to give French names to the various battles amd sites associated with those years. There is a reason that the license plates in Quebec have the motto "Je me souviens".

I've always thought that a proper translation of those license plates would be "I'm still ****** off!"

It's Ti for me. Especially giiven that Duncan Campbell of Inverawe was warned in 1755 by the ghost of his foster brother that they would meet again at Ticonderoga.

I'm not one to argue with Scottish ghosts!

The supposed 'Town of Carillon' is really the hutments where the garrison actually lived. Due to the inexperience of the engineer officer involved, the fort was built too small to house the garrison necessary to hold it (Vauban was very definite about the minimum size of a four bastion fort). And I suspect that, in standard 18th Century practice, there were a number of soldiers wives and children present.

Oh, and the battle is Ticonderoga.

A great many battles have more than one name, and we just learn to understand both. We don't expend lots of time arguing about whether it should be Antietam or Sharpsburg; just use the one you prefer and know the other.

Well, of course no-one is forcing me to do anything, Winston. I am simply curious as to the origin of what seems to me to be an a-historic fashion. We like to debate a-historic beliefs on TMP, don't we! Whether it is the insidious influence of the Wiki article or whether that in turn is the influence of something else, remains to be seen

Parzival- you might be surprised to learn that the bloody fiasco in front of Fort Carillon in 1758, is much better known in some quarters- not least becaue there was an actual battle, even if the British failed.

clib- The distinction between Antietam and Sharpsburg was recgnised at the time and turned on different naming conventions used by the Union and Confederate armies.

Perhaps it's because I'm in Canada but the 1758 battle of Ticonderoga/Carillon is what people at my wargames club think of when you mention the name and the taking of the fort by rebels in 1775 a distant second. We do call it Ticonderoga.

I spent my summers in Bolton Landing and I never met anyone who called it Carillon.

Go with the locals.

The map is gorgeous!

Carillon, Ticonderoga. It was a battle. Name it as you will. Actually I think wikipedia gives the edge to Ticonderoga by a slight margin.

However, it was the Battle of Antietam because we won and the winners name the battles – unless you remain unreconstructed.

It was a battle. Name it as you will.

Well that's gonna help!

*singing*
"You say 'Mont Saint-Jean'
I say 'La Belle Alliance'
Let's call Waterloo off!"

Hmm, doesn't scan very well….

C'est Le Fake News!

Keep Montcalm and Carrillon?

I have a cool t-shirt and a magnet that I got at the gift show there during the reenactment a year or so ago.

Carillon.

Sheesh. Thursday morning fingers.