Tango01 | 02 Dec 2017 10:12 p.m. PST |
"When is the United States going to do the killing necessary to beat its terrorist enemies or eliminate them entirely? Those given the awful task of combat must be able to act with the necessary savagery and purposefulness to destroy those acting as, or in direct support of, Islamic terrorists worldwide. In 2008, then-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Navy Admiral Michael Mullen said, "We can't kill our way to victory." Ever since, many have parroted his words. But what if Admiral Mullen was wrong? The United States has been at war with radical Islamists four times longer than it was with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan in World War II. And those previous enemies were far more competent and aggressive than the terrorists. It is time to kill a lot more of them…." Main page link Amicalement Armand
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Whirlwind | 03 Dec 2017 3:36 a.m. PST |
It is quite a while since I read an article to equal this in crass stupidity. |
Winston Smith | 03 Dec 2017 9:31 a.m. PST |
I think Armand is bitter about his past treatment on TMP, and is trying to get the Usual Suspects canned. |
Tango01 | 03 Dec 2017 2:41 p.m. PST |
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15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 03 Dec 2017 3:34 p.m. PST |
Just what we need. A couple of arm-chair Light Colonels advocating an army of Lieutenant Calley's |
foxweasel | 03 Dec 2017 3:45 p.m. PST |
Lieutenant Colonel Bolgiano is a former paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne Division. He served in Operation Desert Storm and as Command Judge Advocate for Special Operations Command Central in Iraq and Afghanistan. Lieutenant Colonel Taylor is a former paratrooper with the 82nd Airborne Division. He served as Command Judge Advocate for 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment–Delta (Delta Force) and Task Force Bowie in Afghanistan. I'd hardly describe them as armchair Lt Cols, perhaps they have a point and the experience to back it. |
Lion in the Stars | 03 Dec 2017 4:11 p.m. PST |
The problem is that culturally, the Arabs and Pathans identify every male (and some females) physically big enough to carry a weapon as being a combatant. The only way to kill all the combatants by Taliban/DAESH standards is to kill every male. But when you take away a woman's reason for living, you turn her into a combatant. So now you need to kill every female, too. That's called genocide in more civilized parts of the planet. |
Cacique Caribe | 03 Dec 2017 11:41 p.m. PST |
Lion: "That's called genocide in more civilized parts of the planet." So our own artificial "civilized" sensibilities simply keep prolong fighting unnecessarily and make sure there's always someone left to fight us. Makes sense. They, on the other hand, don't seem to have that sensibility problem. I don't think they've ever had that problem, even when they weren't simply fighting for their lives against some invader. That's how the tribes seem to deal with each other for centuries. Dan |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 04 Dec 2017 10:46 a.m. PST |
Civilized societies are held to a much higher standard than terrorists. If they fight by the same rules and stoop to the same level as the terrorists by being callous to inflicting collateral damage, then they're really no better than the terrorists themselves and lose their moral high ground. |
foxweasel | 04 Dec 2017 10:50 a.m. PST |
Nothing they are saying goes against the Law of Armed Conflict. If we choose to fight we should fight to win. |
Pan Marek | 04 Dec 2017 11:08 a.m. PST |
Define "fight to win". Does your definition of same include "become exactly like them"? |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 04 Dec 2017 11:46 a.m. PST |
Bodycount as a measure of battlefield success had gone out of style since Vietnam. I don't think it's making a comeback. |
Cacique Caribe | 04 Dec 2017 12:45 p.m. PST |
In today's Western society, with our "free" news media, there's no such thing as a "fight to win". It's not allowed. The only ones allowed to do so are our enemies. All of them, within and without. The moment the enemy "leaks" a couple of combat videos to our beloved media of a few bodies, even if killed following the strictest most "civilized" rules of combat, forget about it.* Anyone know how China is doing in eastern Afghanistan these days? Me neither. That's because nothing ever leaks out to the press, to be twisted against them and impede their missions and strategy. That and the fact that they own the press. The party and the press are one in the same. And yet we in the West are somehow always the bad guys. Dan * More than a few staged videos with children's bodies made it out of Syria and, without bothering to check the sources, our beloved self-regulated media established an inflammatory false narrative so damaging to our cause that no amount of PR bucks will ever repair or set straight. |
tookey23 | 04 Dec 2017 2:02 p.m. PST |
I don't think crying about free press is a good enough excuse for lost wars to be honest. Not sure why you bring that grudge into a lot of threads. Chinese activities in Afghanistan are also reported in Pakistani and Tajik news quite a lot. |
Cacique Caribe | 04 Dec 2017 2:08 p.m. PST |
Not sure why? Because I've worked with our beloved "news" media for much too long, that's why. Left a bad taste in my mouth that not even sand paper can get rid of. Dan |
McKinstry | 04 Dec 2017 3:33 p.m. PST |
First things first, don't pick unwinnable outside player intruding in civil war fights and then whinge about not being able to win because your hands are tied by not being able to kill your way out. Vietnam was a civil war linked far more closely to nationalism than ideology. Afghanistan is a Pashtun civil war with a dogs breakfast of other parties participating with their own agendas. I find it interesting that we cannot publicly articulate even what winning constitutes. As a side note, Command JAG's are REMF's. I do not believe any JAG pulls patrol or convoy duty. As far as I know other than the true legal activities of prosecution and defense as needed, they do debriefs as folks come in from the field for the primary purpose of providing CYA for higher. If you pull a trigger, you talk with the JAG to make sure everyone has a covered backside. Killing them all and sorting it out later has a long and generally unsuccessful history. The Roman "make a desert and call it peace" or the Crusaders "kill them all, God will know his own" did not work particularly well at the time and long term even less. The US did quite often articulate that goal in dealing with the Native Americans but only a psychopath can consider that behavior nowadays without revulsion. It may have worked somewhat less badly for the Mongols but is that cultural nihilism really what the West wants/needs to emulate? |
Winston Smith | 04 Dec 2017 3:51 p.m. PST |
This begs the question (See? That's how to use it correctly!) that we SHOULD be fighting in Afghanistan. I remain unconvinced of the necessity. Surely by now, we should have learned that they don't need or want New Hampshire town hall democracy or schools for girls. |
foxweasel | 04 Dec 2017 4:14 p.m. PST |
Basically then, if we're fighting insurgents/terrorists, don't bother as we can't kill them without turning into the bad guys. |
foxweasel | 04 Dec 2017 4:29 p.m. PST |
Define "fight to win". That's down to the politicians, soldiers just do what they're told. Does your definition of same include "become exactly like them"? No, because unlike them, we have to follow the Law of Armed Conflict. |
Dragon Gunner | 04 Dec 2017 10:10 p.m. PST |
Our approach has been all wrong. We should tell them we will offer our support to your worst enemy (i.e. religious group, clan, tribe, neighboring country). Our support will come in the form of weapons and equipment and overwhelming air support. The foreign aid package at the end of the conflict will be paid to the group that puts the trouble makers out of our misery. Note there will be no rules of engagement and no such thing as collateral damage when US troops are not involved. Don't expect any catch and release either since your worst enemies will get hold of you. You can avoid this fate by choosing to not oppose us. |
Dragon Gunner | 05 Dec 2017 7:22 a.m. PST |
"The Roman "make a desert and call it peace" or the Crusaders "kill them all, God will know his own" did not work particularly well at the time and long term even less."-Fox Weasel Tell that to Carthage. |
foxweasel | 05 Dec 2017 7:40 a.m. PST |
I never said that, it was McKinstry. I'm a follower of the Crusade model. |
Caedite Eos | 05 Dec 2017 10:59 a.m. PST |
It took 100 years to do that to Carthage. 'Kill them all' comes from a crusade against peace and poverty loving Christian heretics. It wasn't against moslems and it's one of the more awful bits of medieval behavior ( and that's a long list) after someone lost control of their troops. Really shouldn't be a model |
foxweasel | 05 Dec 2017 11:27 a.m. PST |
More crusades in general model, rather than the Albigensian one. |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 05 Dec 2017 2:18 p.m. PST |
Killing wasn't all that's perpetrated by the armies listed above historically speaking. Raping, pillaging and burning were also part of the bargain. Yeah, those were "good times" alright. |
foxweasel | 05 Dec 2017 3:21 p.m. PST |
And now the enemy do all the "raping, pillaging and burning" but our political leaders are too scared to fight back even sticking to LOAC, just in case some innocent people are accidentally hit. Perhaps you think we should pull back to our national borders and wait for them to come here? |
Begemot | 05 Dec 2017 6:42 p.m. PST |
Perhaps you think we should pull back to our national borders and wait for them to come here? Isn't this what Putin said to his government about Ukraine in 2014? A good strategy knows no borders, so to speak. |
Cacique Caribe | 05 Dec 2017 7:28 p.m. PST |
Foxweasel: "Perhaps you think we should pull back to our national borders and wait for them to come here?" For decades some have pushed for the West to go borderless*. A free for all for everyone else to come and go. Just handicap the West, and no one else, mind you. In their minds no one else need expose their tender parts. :) Dan * Like asking us to go skinny dipping in a pool of hungry piranha. |
foxweasel | 06 Dec 2017 12:56 a.m. PST |
Exactly Dan, but as we know, some people live in cloud cuckoo land. They don't see that the world is a nasty place, that other cultures see ours as soft and ripe for plucking, and that to stop them we need equally nasty people who will work within the Law to do so. If the occasional accident or mistakes happen in order to preserve our way of life, I can live with that. |