Unlucky General | 25 Nov 2017 12:54 p.m. PST |
Well, apparently. I was looking at some fine figures on another AAR posting on an Ancients game and both sides had their units in two rank formations. Is there something wrong with all the rules in wargaming or is it us but why is this so common? I realise not everyone is inclined or could afford creating 'big battalion' armies but the habits of the hobbyists seem massively out of step with the practices of most periods we are replicating. I've been just as guilty of this myself but I'm addressing it now. The more I ruminate the worse it looks to me. It wouldn't be the first time but am I alone in feeling we are getting it wrong? |
Timmo uk | 25 Nov 2017 1:49 p.m. PST |
Can you elaborate a bit more. What do you think the hobby is getting wrong and what would 'getting it right' look like? |
79thPA | 25 Nov 2017 2:39 p.m. PST |
I am going to take a stab at what you are talking about…Unless you are playing a figure is a man, there is no way to replicate ranks considering the size of the base compared to the ground scale. You can probably get a pretty accurate footprint with 2mm and 6mm figs, but that is about it. |
Grelber | 25 Nov 2017 2:52 p.m. PST |
If you are going where I think you are, it is an old point of discussion. Either Charles Grant or Lawford and Young address the issue in their books on the Seven Years War. As they point out, regiments of the time formed up three ranks deep. As far as ground scale goes, a single rank would be much more accurate, however they went for two rank deep formations as a sort of compromise between reality and aesthetics. Grelber |
Ivan DBA | 25 Nov 2017 4:55 p.m. PST |
For most games, two-figure-rank units represent units in standard 6-8 ranks deep. How wide were the units you were looking at, by the way? Real units would be hundreds of men in the front rank, not 6 or 7. Point being, as 79thPA said, unless you are playing one figure = one man, your units will necessarily have fewer ranks (and files) than in real life. You can add more ranks if you like the look of it, but the unit will then have an unrealistically deep footprint compared to the ground scale. |
Dynaman8789 | 25 Nov 2017 5:58 p.m. PST |
Just pretend it is the Sharpe TV version of reality and not worry bout it. |
attilathepun47 | 25 Nov 2017 10:49 p.m. PST |
This is not an utter drivel question. It is a valid point of concern. In my opinion, those who go in for depicting battalions 3 ranks (or more) deep for the sake of aesthetics are getting it wrong. Even a single figure takes up more depth than accords with ground scale unless you have a really tiny number of troops represented by each figure. The more ranks you have on a stand, the greater the distortion becomes. Many gamers these days seem not to care about this distortion, but I do. |
Herkybird | 26 Nov 2017 2:51 a.m. PST |
The aesthetics of a game are an important component of it. I have experimented with various depths of figures, but find 2 gives a nice 'look', at least to me. |
Cerdic | 26 Nov 2017 4:02 a.m. PST |
When we were kids we played the Bruce Quarrie rules with Airfix figures. His basing system was single rank, one figure equalled 33 men. In terms of ground scale it worked quite well. But aesthetically….. |
attilathepun47 | 26 Nov 2017 12:51 p.m. PST |
"The aesthetics of a game are an important component of it." No, aesthetics are not inheritantly important to a wargame. This matter is only important if you choose to consider it so. In other words, it is strictly a matter of personal opinion. Chess is the same game regardless of whether it is played with crude pieces or an elegantly expensive set. Wargames are no different. |
Decebalus | 27 Nov 2017 5:17 a.m. PST |
But wargaming is not chess. A red uniformed swiss unit in a french army, rated veteran, is different in gameplay, than a similar veteran unit (Les Terribles for example) painted in the usual uniform. You and your opponent see that they are better. Beeing overwhelmed by the masses of enemy troops or by the look of ancient elephants or by a WW2 Tiger tank is not possible with counters or stand-in models. Wargaming with a model of a Tiger tank is different than using a model of a Pz I as a Tiger tank. So i agree with the statement: aesthetics is important. And we play DBA with double ranks on the bases because it looks and feels better. |
Unlucky General | 27 Nov 2017 10:38 a.m. PST |
So it is just a 'game' or are we trying to represent something also? If the visual side wasn't important, why do we go to all the effort to paint pretty toy soldiers or turn out an 'oooh … ahhh' model? |
attilathepun47 | 27 Nov 2017 10:58 p.m. PST |
Not everybody does paint their figures. There are those who play miniatures games with unpainted figures, others who opt for armies of printed paper flats, and some who have used miniature rules, but played with cardboard counters (mostly home-made, but there was some commercially available system of printed counters for Napoleonic gaming back in the eighties). Personally, I prefer painted miniatures, but those guys may well have just as much fun for far less effort. |
The Angry Piper | 29 Nov 2017 7:59 a.m. PST |
There are those who play miniatures games with unpainted figures Who would DARE???? |
UshCha | 30 Nov 2017 12:57 p.m. PST |
I have to agree with Attlila, while a depiction using a model conveys in my opinion more data that a flat top view, the model are not a key parameter and painting need be just enough to stop it looking daft. Flats are good but seem to favor older periods. 2 1/2D, simple multi faceted flats are something I would love to see devloped. Much less hassle than having to paint models and from a distance perfectly acceptable. |
Bowman | 30 Nov 2017 1:25 p.m. PST |
No, aesthetics are not inheritantly important to a wargame. This matter is only important if you choose to consider it so. It is to me. That's why I play with painted toy soldiers instead of cardboard counters from a board game. I have to agree with Attila….. And so you may. But I don't have to. It's a big, big hobby. We all enjoy it differently. |