4th Cuirassier | 17 Nov 2017 5:37 a.m. PST |
This was the one that was armed with a PaK40 but – so ?I have read – the operators were under instructions not to use it as an ambush weapon or to snipe at enemy tanks. If that is true, what was it for? |
mysteron | 17 Nov 2017 5:54 a.m. PST |
I am not sure about that. There was under 100 manufactured and was produced very late in the war. I cant find any write up, but because of the lateness as mentioned and the fact the Germans were desperate for anything that had a tank gun on , I think it went against all armoured car doctrines and was used as a mobile PAK 40 platform. But that is pure guess work on my part. The shorter gunned version 234/3, I know was used as a support weapon for the other armoured cars . I just cant see the 234/4 being used like this especially as units were very much understrength at this time in the war. |
Skarper | 17 Nov 2017 6:11 a.m. PST |
Just guessing but perhaps it was meant to provide mobile AT defence for the armoured car companies? That is distinct from the Jagdpanzer doctrine of going out and hunting enemy tanks. This makes sense because the open top and barely armoured SdKfz234/4 platform was even less survivable than a towed Pak 40. The ability to reverse out of danger being no doubt welcome but if lying in ambush they'd probably be knocked out by artillery, mortars or just speculative HE fire long before they got a shot off. That said, and it was only conjecture, I suspect the crews and commanders just used them however they thought best at the time. |
Frederick | 17 Nov 2017 6:32 a.m. PST |
I think that the Skdz 234/4 was an attempt to improve mobility of anti-tank guns by whatever means available – I also suspect they were used as what would be best, certainly secondary to the fact an eight wheeled armoured car is not exactly a sack of peanuts |
Rich Bliss | 17 Nov 2017 8:44 a.m. PST |
It was grossly underpowered and, I suspect, more beloved by the high command than the troops actually using it. |
LeonAdler | 17 Nov 2017 9:00 a.m. PST |
As I understood it it was produced for the recon units to counter the use by the Russians of T34s in their recon units. By 44 the aggressive recon tactics of earlier days were gone and recon units found themselves as fire brigades holding the line between other units by fluid ebb and flow tactics. They were intended to be used just as the stummel types were using their better range to 'stand' back and offer support. Have a look at Scouts Out (Edwards and Pruet) if your interested in German recon units/tactics. L |
Martin Rapier | 17 Nov 2017 9:58 a.m. PST |
It wasn't any different to the 75mm armed heavy troops in British armoured car regiments, they are there to support the other armoured cars, just like the Stummels. The Pak 40s have a bit more punch than the 75L24s though. |
Major Mike | 17 Nov 2017 5:57 p.m. PST |
To provide overwatch of the AC's doing the scouting. |
Starfury Rider | 18 Nov 2017 3:54 a.m. PST |
The thing that stands out to me about German Recce is the fairly limited usage of armoured cars. By the time the 234/4 appeared in late 1944, the wheeled Armd Car Coy (usually supplemented by a Heavy Cannon Pl) had been trimmed back to two Pls (each of six vehs with 2-cm guns) and one Hvy Pl (three vehs with 7.5-cm guns). At the end of 1944 the Pls were rejigged to be based on pairs of armd cars, one 2-cm and one 7.5-cm armed, with four pairs in the first Pl and three pairs in the second Pl. The KStN for the very late war period assumes the 7.5-cm car to be the 234/3 with the L24, while the Pz Div 1945 was to use the 234/4 instead. That makes just seven of each, plus one command armd car, for 15 in the whole Armd Recce Bn, while all other protected vehicles were halftracks of some sort. Chamberlain and Doyle note that the 234/3 was superseded by the 234/4 on the production lines from Dec44, with output seemingly ended in Mar45. Presumably that lead to a bit of a mixture in the 1945 due to the happy-go-lucky German supply chain. Gary |
deephorse | 19 Nov 2017 6:18 a.m. PST |
The initial intention of the SdKfz 234 series was that there should just be three variants, the /1, /2 and /3. The 234/4 was yet another of Hitler's pet projects to be started with the December 1944 production run of 234 chassis. On 12 December 1944 Hitler called the 234/4 one of the best technical developments of the entire war.* It would appear that no-one, other than Hitler, imagined or wanted this vehicle, so trying to ascertain what its planned function was is probably a waste of time. It existed and was issued to units, so make use of it the German Army did. *Walter J Spielberger, Armored Vehicles of the German Army 1905-1945 |
4th Cuirassier | 21 Nov 2017 2:43 a.m. PST |
The 234/4 was yet another of Hitler's pet projects Ah, that I didn't know – makes things a bit clearer. It's been said before, but clearly, Hitler was a wargamer. |
HANS GRUBER | 21 Nov 2017 5:53 a.m. PST |
The short barrel 75 had been in German recon platoons for some time. Presumably, it's main function was to support against enemy armored cars, infantry, and heavy weapons. I was under the impression that the Puma had a short production run because of the concern the recon unit would use it in an anti-tank roll. Having a fully enclosed turret the 234/2 seems much more of a practical vehicle than the 234/4. |
donlowry | 21 Nov 2017 10:33 a.m. PST |
I believe only about 100 of the Puma (234/2) were produced. The turret (with the 50/L60 gun) was originally designed for the Panzer IIL, IIRC. While the gun would have been excellent against any Allied or Soviet light tank or armored car, the armor on the turret and hull was thin, and thus vulnerable to the smaller guns on those same light tanks and armored cars. The 234/4 with the 75mm Pak was obviously intended to protect the reconnaissance battalion from enemy tanks. |
Murvihill | 21 Nov 2017 10:52 a.m. PST |
All German combat battalions had a support company. In infantry battalions they had machine guns and mortars. In armored battalions they would have large-bore guns to provide HE when the battalion was composed of light high-velocity AT guns. Thus in 39-40 the battalion had 37mm AT guns but the heavy company had short-barreled 75mm guns. Recon battalions were the same, with a heavy weapons unit that provided HE for the battalion. That's what the 234/3 was for. As the war progressed and the battalion became more likely to run into medium tanks it became necessary to up their firepower and upgrading the short 75 on the 234/3 to a long 75 seemed natural. So I would expect to see the 234/4 in the heavy company of a recon battalion in the TOE (or whatever they called it) but tactically it would be anywhere the battalion needed it to be. |