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"The Templars Knights ..." Topic

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1,307 hits since 3 Nov 2017
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
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Paskal Supporting Member of TMP03 Nov 2017 9:47 a.m. PST

Hello to all

You have noticed that nobody really has any problem to know at all times, the military organization, the outfits and the numbers, at least theoretically, of the Teutonic Knights …

As well as to know what exist in 25 / 30mm figures for these Teutonic Knights…

In my opinion it's not the same for the Templars Knights …

My question is simple, which can enlighten me on the military organization, the outfits and the numbers, at least theoretically, of the Templars Knights without me having to read masses of books …

And what is there like 25 / 30mm figurines specifically for the Templars Knights for the 12th century…

Thank you in advance.

RudyNelson03 Nov 2017 10:43 a.m. PST

Check Fireforge. It is the company that I use for Templers and Teutonics.

uglyfatbloke03 Nov 2017 11:16 a.m. PST

Depends on whether you want historical or fantasy/romance Templars. Templars wore the same armour as anybody else.

Prince Rupert of the Rhine03 Nov 2017 12:33 p.m. PST

I was devastated to find out that despite the net telling me otherwise templars didn't dress like this

uglyfatbloke03 Nov 2017 12:38 p.m. PST

…but they did teleport back from Mars in time to save Robert the Bruce at the Battle of Pelennor Fields…or something….

Druzhina03 Nov 2017 10:22 p.m. PST
Paskal Supporting Member of TMP04 Nov 2017 12:12 p.m. PST

Thank you Druzhina, your links are always great …

What were the proportions between the brethren knights and the mounted sergeants /

What was the outfits of the mounted sergeants?

There was a specific infantry of order sergeants?

The fighters specifically for the order were knights, mounted sergeants and turcopoles?

The serving brethren are the mounted sergeants?

Druzhina06 Nov 2017 9:55 p.m. PST
Paskal Supporting Member of TMP08 Nov 2017 3:02 p.m. PST

Thank you but for the uniforms of their sergeants ?

Druzhina09 Nov 2017 10:28 p.m. PST

A few extracts from the organisation section of Armies and Enemies of the Crusades 1096-1291 by Ian Heath

p11, The Hospitallers:
The brethren-at-arms of the Order consisted of knights and sergeants (the latter outnumbered by the former), though the distinction only first appears in documents in 1206. At this date each brother knight was accompanied by 4 horses and probably 2 esquires, while each brother sergeant had only 2 horses and a single esquire (in all the Military Orders the esquires were drawn from amongst the serving brethren).

Footnote on p12:
* Some indication of the proportions may possibly be given by the Templar garrison of Safed, recorded c. 1243 to have consisted of 50 brother knights, 50 brother sergeants, 50 Turcopoles, 300 crossbowmen, 820 esquires, workmen and others (largely natives) and 400 slaves.

p13, The Templars:
Likewise in addition to brethren their forces included Turcopoles, vassals, mercenaries and allies …
The proportion of Turcopoles would appear to have been similar to those of the Hospitallers, basically on a level with the number of brethren; for example at La Forbie in 1244, where the Templars may have lost as many as 312 brethren, they also lost 324 Turcopoles.

Brethren again consisted of knights and sergeants (the latter existing at least as early as 1147). The distinction between them was almost inevitably more noticeable than amongst the less militaristic Hospitallers, and by 1250 an initiate seeking entry into the Order as a brother knight had first to prove he was the son or descendant of a knight, a qualification likewise requested by the Hospitallers and the Spanish Orders within the next two decades.

Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP19 Nov 2017 11:24 a.m. PST

Thank you all

The knights and sergeants, I see what it is, but for the outfits of the sergeants, it is not that of the knights?

So how were they dressed?

The esquires were drawn from among the serving brethren ?

Esquires in ordinary chivalry, I see what it is, but in knights of Christ?

So how were they dressed?

What is serving brethren?

So how were they dressed?

The infantry of this order was dressed how ?

She wore a particular outfit?

Thank you

Great War Ace Inactive Member19 Nov 2017 1:14 p.m. PST

Sergeants are not "serving brethren". The serving brethren are not fighters at all. Sergeants, and Turcopoles, were mounted troops, with the Turcopoles serving separately as scouts, skirmishers and auxiliary troops. Sergeants were ignoble lancers who were "second line" troops, bolstering the numbers of Knights. Additionally, a Templar garrison would include a number of temporary "brethren" who were serving as lay knights, under penance or to fulfill a vow, etc. These could be in service to the Order for months or even years. They bore their own arms and armorial devices.

In the cloister the Brother Knights wore a white habit, while the lesser brethren, including sergeants, wore brown or black "or some other plain color" (Ian Heath). Lay brethren also wore brown or their own colors (so I gather from reading Ian Heath, who is the most detailed source that I have; anyway, the confrere/Donats brethren didn't wear the white habit or cloak of the Knights of the Order, unlike the Hospitallers: see other thread). Knights were considered to be fighting Cistercians, which is why, being monks, they always wore the white of their order.

In battle dress the habit was replaced with a cloak, of presumably the same colors.

Infantry were mostly mercenaries employed by the wealth of the Order. However, there was (still is?) controversy in the meaning of "sergeants". Smail's Crusading Warfare takes the position that sergeants were not always mounted troops, and probably were usually, if not always, infantry. Sergeants in the lay households and towns probably were infantry for the most part. Certainly, it is almost inconceivable that the 5,000 sergeants mentioned in the Hattin campaign were mounted troops. But the sergeants in the Military Orders probably were cavalry. And any infantry employed were for the most part mercenaries. How these dressed to ID them as Order troops is anyone's guess. I like it when they are painted to reflect a uniformity tied to the Order in question. But there is no evidence that infantry serving, the Templars for instance, had the black and white on shields, or the Templar cross.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP22 Nov 2017 8:50 a.m. PST

Congratulations for these clarifications.

You write:"In battle dress the habit was replaced with a cloak"?

Like the cappa clausa of the Hospitallers Knights and Sergeants…

Is not it Old Glory who offers the most realistic 28mm Hospitallers Knights / Sergeants figurines for the 12th century,because they are in cappa clausa and so we can paint them in Templars…

Great War Ace Inactive Member22 Nov 2017 1:33 p.m. PST

That is correct (assuming errors in your text). Templars did not wear the monk's habit into battle as the Hospitallers did.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP23 Nov 2017 9:44 a.m. PST

Yes no "cappa clausa" for the Templars Knights and Sergeants, but the long sleeved surcoat they carried in 1170 is not it a "cappa clausa"?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP27 Nov 2017 12:40 a.m. PST

I bought all the ospreys on the Military orders, as I shall see.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP27 Feb 2018 12:33 a.m. PST

By dint of searching I found, I now know that the sergeants of this order wore black surcoats, and of course their hauberks were less complete.

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