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"The White Lion on the Red Field" Topic


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561 hits since 24 Oct 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Largoras25 Oct 2017 8:59 a.m. PST

Right so, as a proud bagpiping Scot, I'm finally doing a Scottish army for the 13th-14th centuries.
I'm primarily gonna be using fireforge and Front Rank/Perry HYW.
I know that a lot of Scottish soldiers had the lion rampant colours of yellow and red, the same that we fly here outside, but sometimes I've seen some Scots depicted with a white lion on a red field in their livery/heraldry, and I cannot find any source talking about any Scottish with those colours, which is annoying.
The white lion red background reminds me strongly of the Bohemian colours, and I know they had something to do with the hundred years war?
Any and all advice on this is appreciated greatly!
link

picture

Personal logo Swampster Supporting Member of TMP25 Oct 2017 9:19 a.m. PST

The plate is from the Osprey of Stirling Bridge and Falkirk. The text says that the arms of William Wallace are unknown but he is often attributed gules, a lion argent so that is what the picture shows. The book goes on to say how shaky the evidence for this really is.

The King of Bohemia's lion had two tails and a crown.

Mikelagos Inactive Member25 Oct 2017 9:54 a.m. PST

This is the arms of the Moubray of Barnbougle. Google this family. They arrived with Duke William

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP25 Oct 2017 11:00 a.m. PST

There are a number of Scots arms that have a white lion rampant (Argent) on a red (Gules) field. There are small differences/distinctions but I think only two (or possibly three) would have been in use at that time, the rest being later.

Two appear on the declaration of Arbroath – Dunbar & Mobray and Dunbar is in a bordure so may possibly have been related to Mobray. The earldom of March is the possible 3rd, I'm not sure if those arms were in use that early.


Almost everything 'known' about William Wallace is fake news so don't be surprised that they got his arms wrong (if he ever had any, which I doubt).

Personal logo Swampster Supporting Member of TMP25 Oct 2017 11:17 a.m. PST

The Osprey is very clear that this is based only on the tradition. It gives a number of seals which he used, none of which bear these arms and have a number of different designs.

The Moubrays (or Mowbrays) – a branch of the Anglo-Norman Mowbrays – did use those arms, but that isn't who the Osprey plate is purporting to represent.

uglyfatbloke Supporting Member of TMP25 Oct 2017 12:49 p.m. PST

Not sure that any of the Fireforge figures would be much use to you I'm not that familiar with their range so I may be doing them an injustice, but I can't see anything suitable on their website.
Claymore pikemen are nice. Things to avoid….figures without armour, short bow archers and any figure described as 'Highland/Island'. There's no evidence at all to indicate that they were any different to Lowland troops or English ones for that matter. Mostly figires described as 'Scottish' are going to be useless too (Claymore is an exception)
Anything you actually need to know about Wallace is easily available (mail me thathistorybloke@outlook.com) but there 's really not much you actually need to know; his career was quite short and it's pretty well-documented for the important bit he's a bit of a nobosy after 1298….loud, but not important.
All you need is spearmen, archers and men-at-arms (and maybe the odd bit of set-dressing for camp areas, towns or castles) and all your troops should look exactly like English ones or (with the exception of longbows ) French or Low Country or Italian troops.
Most of fighting in the W of I was conducted by small groups of men-at-arms not an infantryman to be seen.
If you find yourself reading a book that portrays people in terms of being Anglo- or Scoto- Normans put it down and do not open it again.
I'm not aware of any evidence to suggest that Scots particularly wore red and yellow clothing any more than anyone else….what's the evidence?

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP25 Oct 2017 12:51 p.m. PST

True Swampster, but that isn't what the OP was asking.

He said ….

I know that a lot of Scottish soldiers had the lion rampant colours of yellow and red, the same that we fly here outside, but sometimes I've seen some Scots depicted with a white lion on a red field in their livery/heraldry, and I cannot find any source talking about any Scottish with those colours, which is annoying.

… and that is what I was providing information on, not the picture.

Largoras25 Oct 2017 1:43 p.m. PST

Righto, thank you all good lads for providing me with some background on this.
And no need to explain to me how soldiers from different countries were equipped :)
Obviously i'm not gonna have Mel Gibson leading a bunch of barbaric pagans in kilts fighting English knights in plate.
I am aware of the Scottish weaponry and armour of the 12th-13th centuries, and I'm not trying to be 100% accurate in the first place.
But thank you all.

Mikelagos Inactive Member25 Oct 2017 3:31 p.m. PST

GildasFacit
Dunbar & Mobray both supported Edward II.

uglyfatbloke Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2017 5:00 a.m. PST

Gildas, Wallace's father was a knight, so he would have had a differenced version (younger son) of his father's arms.

bilsonius27 Oct 2017 11:10 a.m. PST

FWIW I believe that the law in Scotland on heraldry is stricter than in England, and that it is, at least in theory, an offence to wear arms to which one is not entitled.
Historically, presumably, only the King himself would wear the red & yellow lion rampant on shield etc.

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