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"GW giving away space marines!" Topic


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The H Man14 Oct 2017 10:04 p.m. PST

Should be ? and not !, but I assume I have your attention.

If (IF) GW replace the old marine design with the new bigger ones, or at least just let the old ones fade away, does this mean that they are giving the world the old design?

If this occurs people who enjoy the older design will have to buy from 3rd parties. They will have no option. This in turn will result in many more non GW marines. And lets not even start on recasts.

This type of situation has, of course happened before. GW has already given mantic, and everybody else, fantasy battles. Chaos dwarfs, squats, zoats, sci fi beastmen and many more have been all but abandoned or fully abandoned by GW.

I say give, meaning, of course, that they opt out, allowing anyone else to cash in. How nice of them.

Any I missed? Thoughts?

McWong7315 Oct 2017 12:29 a.m. PST

Size of final product isn't relevant to their rights over the design. The new marines while larger are within the same design (think look and feel, it's pretty much the same) framework.

Earl of the North15 Oct 2017 1:23 a.m. PST

I'd expect GW to continue selling the smaller size ones for as long as possible.

Aren't space marines in all but name already available from other companies?

Personal logo Cyrus the Great Supporting Member of TMP15 Oct 2017 5:17 a.m. PST

@ The H Man,
Your whole assumption is fallacious. Try sculpting new Zoats and marketing them as Zoats and wait for your cease and desist letter.

The H Man15 Oct 2017 5:18 a.m. PST

Yes they are available from other companies. But like with fantasy GW pretty much created that game style. It was emulated every where. Then, finally, GW threw in the towel. I suspect old marines may feel similar treatment.

I would think GW to keep selling the old ones, while stocks last. I would not expact them to do much more restocking and no new old style products. Time will tell.

As for actual legal rights in the design, if any exist, depending where you live. I would think the big marines show enough divergence for even GW to avoid any infringement upon their old marines. There seems quite a contrast.

Please let's not get onto legal discussions.

I think one could come up with a fancier name than zoats.

The H Man15 Oct 2017 5:29 a.m. PST

I am not sure what's so fallacious about it. As I said, it's happened before. They wouldn't just try to create superior marine models, then continue producing new products for the inferior (meaning older) ones into the future. That would be counter to the point of designing new ones.

Then again modern (groan) doctor who did it with the daleks.

Earl of the North15 Oct 2017 6:20 a.m. PST

I think its worth pointing out that its not just the smaller Space marines, its the bikers, land speeders, Rhinos, Predators, Land Raiders, Scouts etc. That is a lot of proven product that they would be abandoning.

I does seem to me that the new larger marines are meant as a supplement rather than a replacement, otherwise I would expect to see larger versions of the Rhino etc. Instead we are seeing only a couple new larger anti grav vehicle designs, rather than updating the the original designs.

Long term I'd expect that the new marines will ultimately replace the smaller ones but I'd also expect that as long as they keep selling GW will happily keep selling both.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if the smaller marines designs start to get more 'retro' over time and end up being more 30K compatible.

alpha3six15 Oct 2017 6:36 a.m. PST

Eventually the Horus Heresy series will get to the Scouring and the Second Founding, and by then almost all of the 40k designs will be usable.

Earl of the North15 Oct 2017 6:53 a.m. PST

True, I was considering the possibility of GW at some point splitting the smaller and larger marine ranges into separate entities (if that makes sense), 30K would seem to offer the possibility of keeping the existing range (with a few design tweaks) in production while allowing them to scale creep all the 40K marines and vehicles into the larger versions.

The H Man15 Oct 2017 7:03 a.m. PST

Until the Rita Repulsa that is GW turns her gaze upon 30k. "Make my monster grow!" Or whatever she said.

haywire Supporting Member of TMP15 Oct 2017 12:51 p.m. PST

The "design" for the original Space Marines is still under IP. Same for the original Dreadnaught, Landspeeder, robots, rhino, landraider, etc…

The small space marines will still be under IP even if the scale has changed.

The H Man15 Oct 2017 2:02 p.m. PST

Maybe in the UK.

But I'm not talking about ip.

Like with fantasy and the others, I'm just talking about GW stepping aside while others step up or continue to produce alternatives.

As mentioned there are lots of alt old marines out there already, most perfectly legal, but if GW stop selling old marines, the market is given to these other companies.

ordinarybass Supporting Member of TMP15 Oct 2017 4:09 p.m. PST

GW has never really stepped asside if they could put a stop to it. Lots of third party sellers exist, but you get too close to anything GW has made and they will be after you.

The H Man15 Oct 2017 5:35 p.m. PST

That's simple scare mongering. The fact people are already doing it is proof that if GW don't make them, they will and there is nothing they can do.

I was trying to avoid all this legal guff. Groan.

But if GW has not been able to stop them now, while they still produce the old marines, why would they bother once they stop making them? If you have seen THX 1138 you know the scenario, once it's not in their financial interest to stop people, they will call off the androids.

But that only applies to reproduction of their products. If even that is protected. If it's an original sculpt, not a lot can bedone, as it is not based on their product. Though they would like you to believe otherwise.

(Disagree? Proof please)

langobard Supporting Member of TMP15 Oct 2017 9:22 p.m. PST

I agree with Earl of the North and others who see the possibility / probability that the current range will migrate from 40k to 30k, but it will take a LONG time.

After all, Space Marines aren't just one army, they are a lot of different chapters as well. So at the moment, and probably for the foreseeable future, if you want to do a full Space Wolf or Blood Angels army with all their various icons and trappings, you are stuck with the current models, and the new marines at best are a support.

It is interesting that GW is trying to emphasize tension between some of these chapters and the new marines, so perhaps there will be a gradual abandonment / transfer to 30k of the more generic models.

But for me, this is a thing that will take years, possibly a decade or more.

Which is probably as it should be.

Certainly I don't think that GW would overtly entertain the thought of 'giving away' the old marines, but as you note, they have given up what they evidently perceived as a fight in terms of fantasy battle.

So, it is an interesting idea, but not one that I think we'll see any quick answer to!

The H Man15 Oct 2017 10:05 p.m. PST

It's odd you mention fantasy there, amid saying you think it will take a long time for the old marines to go. Look at fantasy. Now you see it, now you don't. That did not take years (at least from our perspective, preparing aging sick ma for release may have taken a year or two behind the scenes. But, the new marines are already out. Don't blink).

langobard Supporting Member of TMP15 Oct 2017 10:30 p.m. PST

H Man, actually, I think they tried to hang on to fantasy as long as they could, but then decided that it wasn't worth it. I know you are trying to avoid legal questions etc, but for me, fantasy went so quickly because the came to a legal decision that they weren't going to win, and therefore decided to move the goal posts. Thus the sudden turn in terms of Fantasy.

I don't think they are looking at the same problems for their old space marines given that they can keep them for 30k.

Note: in terms of fantasy, I migrated to Mantic once they blew up the freaking world I loved. Much more difficult to blow up a galaxy, no matter what they may have just tried to do in their mythos :)

So yeah, I'm trying to adhere to your request to avoid the legal arguments, but for me, that was in fact the driving force behind the fantasy "collapse". Sorry….

alpha3six16 Oct 2017 1:29 a.m. PST

Speaking as someone who will remain hooked on classic marines for life, I doubt I will ever turn to third party alternatives even if GW phases out the whole range, unless the third party stuff is unmistakably MKII-VII. But at that point, they would almost certainly run into legal trouble.

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP16 Oct 2017 4:22 a.m. PST

does this mean that they are giving the world the old design?

No – it doesn't mean that. They could bring them back later if they want to. It's their IP.

If this occurs people who enjoy the older design will have to buy from 3rd parties. They will have no option

Yes they do have an option – buy second hand or do without. Wanting something doesn't mean you can steal someone's IP.

GW has already given mantic, and everybody else, fantasy battles.

Elves, dwarves, lizardmen – that's no-one's IP. Anyone can make such figures if they want. Maybe GW will again in the future.

Centurio Prime16 Oct 2017 5:00 a.m. PST

Fake News!

The H Man16 Oct 2017 1:09 p.m. PST

Groan.

Again, I was not talking about legal rights, whatever they may be.

I am talking about GW simbolicly giving everyone the ok to make or continue making (groan-legal) alternatives by discontinuing their own involvment with the old marines.

Again if they do discontinue the old marines, it would be the same as what happened with fantasy. People already made alternatives and this continued after GW left the arena, only now the others dont have GW as competition. (I know aos is also a fantasy game, but not of the style of the other, which is what I am talking about).

Do try to keep up, thanks.

alpha3six16 Oct 2017 2:01 p.m. PST

Yes my point was that I, and others who think like myself, if they exist, would not be interested in third party alternatives precisely because they are not 40k Space Marines. But I can only speak for myself. If I didn't care so much about the classic designs in the first place, I'd probably just go and buy Primaris, unless I had a problem with the size of them.

Now if the question is, would I buy 28mm not-Rhinos and Not-Raiders like scaled up versions of Vanguard's 6mm offerings, that may be a different story as vehicle designs do vary from pattern to pattern and I can maybe convince myself to accept a notRaider as a Land Raider. I just can't do the same with power armor.

I also think that if GW kills the classic marines range because they think the new stuff is much more popular (and if they are right), third party efforts will likely shift towards making Primaris compatible parts, if that's where the market is heading.

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP16 Oct 2017 3:04 p.m. PST

Groan.

The analysis which starts with the concept that by currently not making a product a manufacturer has tacitly given permission for others to copy their product wholesale is pure fantasy.

Unless GW sells someone a legal licence then GW are going to sue those who rip them off. That's their business.

The H Man16 Oct 2017 5:44 p.m. PST

Forgetting, of course, their business is doing just that themselves, ripping off others work. Terminator-necrons. Aliens-tyranids. LOTR-wfb. Even space marines seem a rip off star wars and judge dread. And let's not start on where they got they name they thought they owned. The fact is if it's different enough there is no real issue.

And again I mean they would be giving permission symbolically, as in by not offering an product themselves. Please read the above posts before commenting. And try to avoid legal guff, or start your own post on that topic.It truly bores me.

Nice point alpha3six. I would include vehicles in this too.

The H Man16 Oct 2017 6:58 p.m. PST

Oops forgot the big one.

GW originally distributed dungeons and dragons in Britain. Citadel started making figs for it. Then tsr started doing its own distribution leaving GW with figs and no game. So they released warhammer. Using the figures based on d and d. Legal as it was, if thats not a rip off of someones propety, I dont know what is.

No more legal stuff, starting from….now.

Legion 417 Oct 2017 6:29 a.m. PST

I've noticed since 40K RT and Epic, in '90 … GW/FW have a "sliding scale" when it comes to sizes of models. Calling it "scale creep" may not be the correct term. But I could be wrong …

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP17 Oct 2017 9:27 a.m. PST

So they released warhammer. Using the figures based on d and d. Legal as it was, if thats not a rip off of someones propety, I dont know what is.

Dwarves, elves, wizards, warriors, goblins, hobgoblins – hardly TSR's copyright…

The H Man17 Oct 2017 1:49 p.m. PST

Point is they were made for d and d. Your right though, sounds more like lotr, which is what d and d would have been based on in part. (Enoughhh)

I do wander what the reason for making things bigger is? It costs more which is bad all round. You get more detail. Maybe more people are buying for display pieces?

Ah ha! They sell more paint! Smaller figures require less paint. Do some math on amount of paint needed, extra colours for more detail, paint wastage on cloths frequent brush washing due to more colour changes and mixing and wasted paint in empty pots or that dried up and don't forget all the paint left on pallets extra colors and mixing. Thats a lot of extra paint sold around the world for just a mm or so of creep. Interesting.

Eclipsing Binaries18 Oct 2017 4:54 a.m. PST

H Man, you talk as much rubbish as mithmee! GW making figures bigger so that you need to buy more paint!!! Sounds like you've been drinking the paint stripper.

You keep saying you want to avoid legal discussions but yo are discussing whether GW has relinquished their IP claims just by bringing out larger space marines. The answer is simple: no they haven't. Not legally, not figuratively, not in any way.

Maybe they made bigger marines for financial reasons or maybe for creative reasons. They certainly didn't do it so others can benefit from the years of development work they put into these figures.

And as for any argument about where they got the original idea, even the earliest "space marine" concept was based on existing military units transposed into a sci-fi environment. The earliest recorded marines were the Fanti da Mar created by in Venetian Doge in the 16th century. GW has evolved these concepts to create the dark gothic background and style that they can now claim as a unique IP.

Earl of the North18 Oct 2017 6:05 a.m. PST

The reason for making them bigger seems to be quite simple, there has been a long running thing about 'true scale' space marines and its appears that its popular enough that GW believed they could cash into that desire for the larger scale Marines closer to the fluff. As a bonus they found a way to sell both.

langobard Supporting Member of TMP18 Oct 2017 6:14 a.m. PST

Yep, I have always wanted larger space marines, as, well, they are supposed to be larger than a normal human….

Legion 418 Oct 2017 6:44 a.m. PST

As usual … It's about the money … But GW is in the biz to make a profit. I.e. to stay in biz. evil grin

The H Man18 Oct 2017 1:50 p.m. PST

Actually my paint idea is not that bad. After all they got rid of encouraging scratch built terrain and just sell plastic kits as it makes more money (I'm sure some one will dispute this, again, but go in store and ask where all the scratch built terrain is, or how to make it "first you buy this box, then you buy these paints" is the best they can do).

Why else do they still sell paints? They could easily switch to pre painted minis and it would be no greater change than switching to rattley box terrain. It is obviously very profitable, selling paint, and no one can dispute that or the fact that larger figures require more paint and produce more paint wastage, intended or not.

Again, for the slow of mind, I never said nor meant to insinuate GW were giving away ip which they may or may not have. Stop trying to say so, it's plain rude, especially considering how many times I have had to clarify the fact.

The H Man18 Oct 2017 4:02 p.m. PST

A business does not need to make a profit to stay in business. Breaking even is still OK, especially if everyone is still getting paid. In fact some big businesses make losses and manage stay in business. Not that I am suggesting GW should make a loss. Less of a profit, maybe.

alpha3six19 Oct 2017 3:03 a.m. PST

A lot of people who paint 40k minis do not actually use GW paints. I use Vallejo primarily.

Also, to be quite frank, many of the "little kids" who supposedly form the bulk of GW's target demographic never paint their minis anyway.

The H Man19 Oct 2017 4:14 a.m. PST

True on both accounts. However you have failed to factor in the people who use GW paints on other figures. So it would mostly balance out. They still sell a lot of paint. Possibly a lot more now days to fools who think you need different paints for base, layer, wash, eye balls, pubic hair, so on (GW used to have a single line of paint and washes). Also buy selling rattley box terrain and not pushing scratch building the put further pressure on people to use their paints for terrain also. And their terrain will use a lot of paint (People would use their paint on scratch builds before but also other brands and cheaper paints, now the terrain is plastic kits there is more pressure to use their paints).

Centurio Prime19 Oct 2017 4:25 a.m. PST

Mean GW, conspiring to make a profit by selling wargamers cool things!

Earl of the North19 Oct 2017 5:26 a.m. PST

A business does not need to make a profit to stay in business. Breaking even is still OK, especially if everyone is still getting paid. In fact some big businesses make losses and manage stay in business. Not that I am suggesting GW should make a loss. Less of a profit, maybe.

A business does need to make a profit, that is kind of basic really…..if you are not making a profit, then you will eventually go out of business. While many wargaming companies exist for other reasons as well as making a profit they rarely exist long term if they cannot make a profit.

Honestly I'm not sure if your just trolling at this point since this claim was so strange. If your not, please never get into a position where you are giving any financial advice, especially to any wargaming companies as I would like for them to exist when I try to buy stuff.

Do you have any connection to the guy who ran Defiance Games/Wargames Factory by the way as you seem to be describing his business model, he never thought his businesses needed to make a profit either.

Legion 419 Oct 2017 7:25 a.m. PST

A business does not need to make a profit to stay in business. Breaking even is still OK, especially if everyone is still getting paid. In fact some big businesses make losses and manage stay in business. Not that I am suggesting GW should make a loss. Less of a profit, maybe.
Not any business model I ever heard of. But I'm not GW's CFO or shareholders … I do have 2 degrees from the a state university's School of Business … so … Maybe I'm missing something ? huh?

Mean GW, conspiring to make a profit by selling wargamers cool things!
Now that sounds like a good concept of a business model for a business that makes models ! wink

A business does need to make a profit, that is kind of basic really…..if you are not making a profit, then you will eventually go out of business. While many wargaming companies exist for other reasons as well as making a profit they rarely exist long term if they cannot make a profit.

Honestly I'm not sure if your just trolling at this point since this claim was so strange. If your not, please never get into a position where you are giving any financial advice, especially to any wargaming companies as I would like for them to exist when I try to buy stuff.

Yep … thumbs up

The H Man19 Oct 2017 1:57 p.m. PST

I would agree with you centurio prime, but as pointed out GW are all about making profit. Mean or not. Sad but true.

Actually you are both incorrect. A business does not require profit to remain active. As long as the bills are paid and all employees are paid, insurance, rent and so on, profit is not required for the business to exist. The business just won't be able to grow, which, in GWs case may have been a good thing (cheeky grin). Not the best set up, I agree, but there you go.

Maybe legion4 slept thtough a class?

Personal logo Pictors Studio Sponsoring Member of TMP19 Oct 2017 1:58 p.m. PST

Do you guys not understand what happens when you keep throwing food under a bridge?

The H Man19 Oct 2017 2:00 p.m. PST

Probably attracts the likes of you.

Earl of the North19 Oct 2017 2:34 p.m. PST

Do you guys not understand what happens when you keep throwing food under a bridge?

Yeah its pretty obvious at this point.

The H Man19 Oct 2017 6:46 p.m. PST

Hey, you don't like it, go clog up some one else's topic and stop wasting my time.

The H Man19 Oct 2017 6:48 p.m. PST

Hey, you don't like it, go clog up some one else's post and stop wasting my time.

Centurio Prime19 Oct 2017 7:01 p.m. PST

Go ahead and start a business that has "makes no profit" in its mission statement.

The H Man20 Oct 2017 4:29 a.m. PST

Learn to read and you'll find out I never suggested anyone should
not make a profit. I think that would be a better idea. Do try to keep up.

Centurio Prime20 Oct 2017 5:26 a.m. PST

Haha, really?

Legion 420 Oct 2017 6:36 a.m. PST

Maybe legion4 slept thtough a class?
I slept thru a number of classes …

Regardless … AFAIK no one would be in biz too long if you don't make a profit. IIRC, many businesses take 2-5 years to actually make/claim a profit. If they do not close before that time. But as we know GW has been around for a few decades.

But again, I'm not the GW CFO(or would want to be) or a shareholder (nor would want to be).

If my broker kept me in a business that failed to make a profit after 2-5 years. He wouldn't be my broker much longer …

No matter I'm retired … and very, very rarely buy anything GW/FW makes … Just say'n …

The H Man20 Oct 2017 12:49 p.m. PST

OK, fair enough.

You make a good comment re what a broker may do. If GW failed to make profit they may loose share holders. Maybe return to their previous form. One can dream.

Centurio prime. Yes. I never actually said it. People assumed.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to post.

If you just reading and have a view (related to the topic, I hope) please let us know.

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